Transgender women ...

[dorade]

... are men who have chosen to identify as trans women, that is people who to a greater or lesser degree adopt the cultural stereotypes generally associated with biological women.

It may be that many of these stereotypes are not in fact displayed by biological women (such as make-up, long hair and dresses).

Some transgender women take female hormones

Some transgender women also seek cosmetic surgery which includes feminising of faces, breast surgery and removal of the penis, although, contrary to common thought, only a very small minority of transgender women undergo this procedure.

Irrespective of the number of measures taken by an individual, at no point does a transgender woman cease being a biological male.

It is right and proper that transgender women are treated as equal human beings with equal rights. But as they remain biologically male that does not include access to women's only spaces such as refuges, changing rooms, prisons or women's sports.

None of the above should be in the least bit controversial.

Thanks Jiggly.

ego as you well know, your definition of a trans woman (which I entirely agree with) is no longer the accepted definition of a trans woman. The only definition required is to self identify. I am aware that MM's gender bill has been kicked into the long grass but in reality it is already being applied. Expecting trans women to make some legal, medical or social efforts towards transition is transphobic.

Again - definitions are important in any kind of statement.

The doctor has said:

Fred Ettner, a physician in Evanston, Ill., who works with people going through transition, estimated that only about 25 percent to 30 percent of transgender people have any kind of surgery

That statement can be unpacked - define transgender and then look at the difference between MTF and FTM rates. It's also American - and then you've got to look at access to surgery.

Also in that article..

Anecdotal accounts of regret abound, but overall it appears to be rare. Bowers said that only two of the 1,300 people she has operated on have wanted to go back to their old bodies

It still seems that the statement in the op that

although, contrary to common thought, only a very small minority of transgender women undergo this procedure.

Seems to lack any actual evidence

Um, I agree with you, but I'm not sure what your point is - all of this has been stated many times over on other threads. I don't think you'll be winning any converts by starting another thread just to say the same thing, without any other comment.

Quite.

It's as much evidence as you've got for your opinion, ego. I don't think that's the only source of the statement. I'm pretty sure I've looked it up before when challenged and my challenger conceded but said I should change my statement from "the vast majority of TW don't have bottom surgery". I changed it to "the majority". Which I seem to remember was the case.

It's as much evidence as you've got for your opinion, ego

It seems we both agree that the statement only a very small minority of transgender women undergo this procedure is not an accurate representation of what actually happens.

Do we agree on "only a minority"?

egosumquisum1
"How are you defining a transwoman?"

The OP clearly states at the very beginning of this thread:
"Transgender women are men who have chosen to identify as trans women"

Self identified transwomen all over the internet, and the dozens of organisations representing them, are very clear that a transwoman is a person identified as male at birth who identifies as a woman or a trans woman.

The definition you ego are giving here of a trans woman is an archaic usage and it is disingenuous of you to keep pretending otherwise.

A "trans woman" is a male who says he is a trans woman. Or says he is a woman. Whatever he says is what we are supposed to indulge as truth. Whatever he says is the delusion we are all supposed to play along with.

There is no special surgery or medication he is supposed to take. Men and boys in the UK do not need legally stamped certificates to have our institutions (schools, universities, the NHS, prisons, workplaces, mumsnet...) 'recognise' them as girls or women within those instututions. Once a man says he is a woman or a trans woman these institutions indulge him.

I dont even believe most of these men are delusional. That is why they are so angry, defensive, malicious and engage in constant gaslighting. They are abusers, pushing their cult dogma on all of us by utilising their many male privileges.

So my definition is this - A trans woman is a man who uses his male privileges to influence the establishment to force women and children to publicly go along with delusional thinking and outright lies in order to cater to his ego.

Does that answer your question?

Do we agree on "only a minority

I'm not sure what percentage of trans women do have surgery. I can't say if it's a minority or not - again depending on the definitions so I can't say whether I agree or disagree with that statement.

The data on those who present at a GIC would seem to suggest that it's much more than a very small minority.

I am sure figures are available somewhere following the care pathway and outcomes once people are discharged from the care pathway.

I haven't researched those figures.

Once a man says he is a woman or a trans woman these institutions indulge him

I don't think from a legal point of view in the UK, that is correct.

There is no need for a male identifying as trans to present themselves at a GID.

Not from a strictly legal point of view. But as things currently stand it's a bit of grey area and it's happening anyway because organisations are averse to bad publicity and pressure.

Not from a strictly legal point of view

Correct. We don't have self identification yet and there are strict legal systems in place to tackle discrimination.

The current legal situation is in the process of being challenged by trans activists, and these lobbyists have the ear of people in government, as you well know ego.

Your selective reading and disingenuousness has again skipped acknowledging that current legislation and current policy do not match.

People are getting concessions because they say they identify as "non binary" and all that special snowflake bullshit. Yes, in the UK. Not just people with confirmed gender dysphoria.

Did you read the rest of my post? I said it was pretty much a moot point that the current law relates to GRC.

The current legal situation is in the process of being challenged by trans activists, and these lobbyists have the ear of people in government, as you well know

I know it's being challenged. I am referring to the current legal definitions.

Your selective reading and disingenuousness

You do actually realise I am not in favour of self identification? So not sure why you need to attack me like that? I'm kind of on your side.

ego

You identified yourself as a trans woman on this forum before you had your surgery.

Did you identify yourself as a trans woman before you had a legal certificate to confirm it?

Anyone who thinks that a woman can be defined (or self defined) by a man, or worse can be surgically created by a man, is most definitely not "on my side".

Did you identify yourself as a trans woman before you had a legal certificate to confirm it

I told the people I worked with that I was under referral to a GIC, was undergoing HRT and this was happening. At the same time, I came out at work, name changed - and at that point, I was protected from dismissal due to gender reassignment.

In that case spartacusX, I don't need to engage with you anymore.Luckily there are other people on here who I am able to engage with.

Is it an attack to point out that a person's argument relies on selective reading and is disingenuous?

How can one discuss anything if disagreement and pointing out errors is percieved as an attack?

People are getting concessions because they say they identify as "non binary" and all that special snowflake bullshit

See - I don't think they should. I do think people should be able to present as they want without fear of discrimination - and I don't think they should get concessions for that.

I say you arent on my side, so you say that means you dont need to engage me.

I say you are reading selectively, you say I am attacking you.

You say a trans woman is a person with a legal certificate and surgery yet you also say you identified as a trans woman and were treated as such legally (including at your place of employment) not after you recieved certification and surgery but after you approached a doctor for referral to a GIC and identified yourself as a transwoman.

You can choose not to engage with me but I dont have the privilege of disengaging from all this while my human rights are under attack and while I am being forced to publicly go along with the trans lie.