Transgender women ...

[dorade]

... are men who have chosen to identify as trans women, that is people who to a greater or lesser degree adopt the cultural stereotypes generally associated with biological women.

It may be that many of these stereotypes are not in fact displayed by biological women (such as make-up, long hair and dresses).

Some transgender women take female hormones

Some transgender women also seek cosmetic surgery which includes feminising of faces, breast surgery and removal of the penis, although, contrary to common thought, only a very small minority of transgender women undergo this procedure.

Irrespective of the number of measures taken by an individual, at no point does a transgender woman cease being a biological male.

It is right and proper that transgender women are treated as equal human beings with equal rights. But as they remain biologically male that does not include access to women's only spaces such as refuges, changing rooms, prisons or women's sports.

None of the above should be in the least bit controversial.

This is very interesting on prevalence of surgery. They found 45% of transwomen planned to have genital surgery and 5% had had it. This is a lower percentage than has been found in other studies. It was a relatively small survey and was conducted online. The researchers discuss the limitations of this type of research and compare it with data from other studies. They found (unsurprisingly!) that studies conducted in clinical settings - especially where all participants were already receiving hormone therapy - found much higher prevalence of genital surgery - the highest was 73%

In non-clinical settings, the numbers undergoing genital surgery were much lower, although not as low as the current study found. The lowest figure was 9%. In the largest non-clinical study, which had ∼6500 participants of both sexes, 33% said they had 'surgically transitioned' although it is unclear whether this means genital surgery or 'top' surgery, facial feminisation etc.

spartacusX

There are plenty of threads on MN (I don't remember discussing this with you) where I have spoken with people about what I think a trans woman is.

They found (unsurprisingly!) that studies conducted in clinical settings - especially where all participants were already receiving hormone therapy - found much higher prevalence of genital surgery - the highest was 73%

The trick is to quote the statistics that suit people's views and agenda.

ego you have spoken about that on this very thread. And as I just pointed out, your definition contradicts with the definition currently accepted in policy by instutitions throughout the UK, with the definition promoted by trans activists which they are lobbying government to introduce into legislation, and actually contradicts with your own situation. You werent treated as a trans woman by institutional policy after certification and surgery, but from the point that you identified yourself as wanting certification and surgery. As you know all of this, your argument that a trans woman is a person who is legally recognised as a woman and has had surgery is disingenuous.

There's the law - GRA, EA - and then there are a host of policies and guidelines which are increasingly going way past what the law currently says. And then there are petitions and general social pressure.

Tara Hudson had no GRC and had not had genital surgery. Tara was sent to a women's prison because of an online petition.

This is where we are at and it's pointless for anybody to be saying 'oh well that's not my definition of trans'. Our personal definitions are irrelevant.

"The trick is to quote the statistics that suit people's views and agenda."

Indeed.

The trick is to quote the statistics that suit people's views and agenda.

A more useful 'trick' is to look at the population of male people who are actually accessing female spaces now. It's a far wider group than those who already attend a GIC and have been on hormones for 3 months + (which is where the 73% came from).

I'd say the figures from non-clinical studies are far more relevant to this discussion.

I do think people should be able to present as they want without fear of discrimination - and I don't think they should get concessions for that.

We agree, but again it's a question of definition. How are you defining "discrimination"? I am defining it as not being fired from your job or refused entry to somewhere just for being trans. I think women only intimate spaces should be exempted from this. There are wider definitions. Some people would define it as anything that made a transwoman unable to validate their view of themselves as a woman. Or a non binary person should be able to choose whichever faculties they wish to at any given time.What are your thoughts?

venus

As I said upthread, I posted on this thread to highlight the point about surgery. I don't really want to have yet another discussion on what you've highlighted.

But I am sure other people will tell you what they think.

But that's the heart of the issue, definitions. We agree on that. You haven't disproved the original statement. It's a matter of definition.

I think a transwomen is someone who presents at a GP, declares they have gender dysphoria, is referred to a GIC and starts to undergo transition. That gives them legal rights under the law.

I absolutely agree with you Ego.

I've been called a bigot and transphobe though, so I'm not sure how this works.

Apologies also Ego with regard to the surgery questions earlier. It was unnecessary and uncalled for. Your surgery is your choice. But fair play you answered with dignity.

That's what the definition SHOULD be. And if it was universally accepted this problem wouldn't have arisen in the first place.

See - I don't think they should. I do think people should be able to present as they want without fear of discrimination - and I don't think they should get concessions for that what concessions like it being hate speech to call them out in the women's showers? Right now, in the U.K. when the law actually hasn't been changed yet? Like being able to insist on joining the guides? Stuff like that?

ego here is guidance from The Law Society about the law regarding transgender employees.
It is very clear that gender reassignment is a personal rather than medical process and that someone does not need to have undergone surgery or be under medical supervision to be covered by current legislation.

www.lawsociety.org.uk/support-services/advice/practice-notes/working-with-transgender-employees/

. The rabbit hole is this way peeps.

According to a transgender organisation, only a third of trans people undergo any form of surgery.

www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2014/03/13/watch-debunking-surgery-top-priority-trans-people-myth

In America, where they have to pay for it and the inequality there makes coming up with $10,000-30,000 quite difficult for a group of people who tend to struggle with employment.

Actually - the link said:

"In reality, only 33 percent of transgender people have reported undergoing some form of gender-confirming surgery, with 14 percent of transgender women and 21 percent of transgender men not interested in ever having genital surgery"

And when you read the report, it actually says

33% of respondents reported that they had HAD surgery. Which is different to a 33% of trans people undergo any form of surgery.

www.thetaskforce.org/static_html/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_full.pdf

Sixty-one percent (61%) of our respondents reported having
medically transitioned, while 33% said that they had surgically
transitioned. The percentage of respondents who we label
“medically transitioned” is higher than the percent of those who
we consider “transitioned” because a sizable percent of those who
have had hormone therapy are not yet living full-time. Detailed
information about specific treatments and procedures is contained
in the Health chapter.

It is important to keep in mind that almost all transition related
care is paid for out of pocket, without any insurance
reimbursement. Thus, appropriate medical treatment is highly
dependent on an individual’s ability to pay for it. The desire to
medically transition and the ability to afford to do so are entirely
different and should not be conflated or confused

If 14% of trans women are not interested in surgery, it could be assumed that 86% are interested in surgery.

Being 'interested in surgery' is back to what's in people's heads again, just like 'feeling female'. Changing laws based on unverifiable thoughts and feelings in people's heads is a shockingly bad idea.

It's a moot point anyway because 1) transwomen who have genital surgery are still male and 2) nobody should be pushed towards surgery that destroys healthy tissue, sexual function and fertility, because of a feeling in their head.

God Almighty, it's not difficult. Do what you need to do to make yourself happy but stop pushing the illogical agenda on women and expecting them to simper and accept

I've read all the arguments, about chromosomes, about biological sex being socially constructed, about intersex, about who is more oppressed, the endless grading of authenticity and rights, rights!

I really, really don't care any more. Leave women alone.

I really, really don't care any more. Leave women alone

Yep. With bells on. Just stop it.