Transgender women ...

[dorade]

... are men who have chosen to identify as trans women, that is people who to a greater or lesser degree adopt the cultural stereotypes generally associated with biological women.

It may be that many of these stereotypes are not in fact displayed by biological women (such as make-up, long hair and dresses).

Some transgender women take female hormones

Some transgender women also seek cosmetic surgery which includes feminising of faces, breast surgery and removal of the penis, although, contrary to common thought, only a very small minority of transgender women undergo this procedure.

Irrespective of the number of measures taken by an individual, at no point does a transgender woman cease being a biological male.

It is right and proper that transgender women are treated as equal human beings with equal rights. But as they remain biologically male that does not include access to women's only spaces such as refuges, changing rooms, prisons or women's sports.

None of the above should be in the least bit controversial.

So it's ok if the trans women "pass" then....

Ffs

It's a fact of life. Nothing anyone can do about it, if no one knows it's not going to be an issue. It's not "ok", it's just reality.

It's just ridiculous. The same people who have issues with trans women in female space like bathrooms would have far more to moan about if trans men were using those same spaces. These PEOPLE can't win.

No we wouldn't. I have no problem with anyone female in women's spaces. Don't be silly.

All these threads seem to completely ignore the fact that there are trans men out there as well. How would you feel about these people having access to female spaces when they identify and look completely as men.

Identify, looks like, lives like. So what? In the scenario you describe the person is a woman regardless of how she identifys.

I don't there are any transmen demanding the right to use men's loos. - Just walking past the gents in most places is enough to turn my stomach. The stench!

So you would all be ok with someone who looks like a man, acts like a man and feels like a man using the women's loos. What are you going to do have a DNA or genitalia check to allow access. Come on.

Just to put context on this the dude who played stacys brother kyle in Eastenders was born a woman. You can honestly tell me you would be fine with him using a female toilet but not any trans woman

What do you mean by acts like a man ?

The actor you're talking about was born a woman and is still a woman. She prefers to live as a man.but she's still a woman.I think she'd struggle to use the urinals.

I mean save for checking down their pants you would believe to be a man.

All men behave like stuff is rubbish. We are all just people.

I find trans stuff hard to relate to as I am a woman, I don't feel like a woman I just am who I am. I probably am just ok with that because I feel right I don't feel there is anything missing or that I have anything I shouldnt. But I also recognise the right of others to feel differently from me and that others may not in the deepest part of their soul feel like their body reflects who they are as a person. I may not understand it but it doesn't mean it's not real. I don't understand "dark matter" doesn't mean the physicists are wrong.

What are you going to do have a DNA or genitalia check to allow access. Come on.

That's exactly what we're not saying. Do you have any empathy at all with the women whose boundaries will be violated if any man can be present in women's sex segregated spaces? Rape survivors? Or is all your sympathy for the males who think they're women?

I agree others have a right to feel differently. What they don't have a right to do is insist that everyone else plays along with the delusion that they are something they are not. Many late transitioning males have a personality disorder. If you haven't read about autogynephilia I suggest you do. Read the following and ask yourself do you really want to be showering besides these men.

transgenderreality.com/2015/06/22/schrodingers-trans-sexual-fetish-or-transgender/

transgenderreality.com/tag/masturbation/

transgenderreality.com/tag/autogynephilia/

outofmypantiesnow.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/when-is-90-not-substantially-all/

Some transgender women also seek cosmetic surgery which includes feminising of faces, breast surgery and removal of the penis, although, contrary to common thought, only a very small minority of transgender women undergo this procedure

Is that bit about surgery true though? I thought the percentage of people who go to a GIC and eventually end up having surgery is not a 'very small minority'.

From

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/10/transgender-clinic-waiting-times-patient-numbers-soar-gender-identity-services

Between 80% and 90% of patients who arrive at the Charing Cross clinic go on to have cross-sex hormones, while a smaller proportion progress to surgery. Some of this is available on the NHS, though there are currently less than a dozen surgeons in the health service who perform such procedures.

Seal said about 60% of trans women who received treatment at the Charing Cross clinic sought genital surgery, and the average waiting time for this male-to-female surgery (vaginoplasty) was 81 weeks.

This compares with 10-30% of trans men who go on to have genital surgery (phalloplasty), though many trans men will have chest reconstruction surgery.

So up to 60% of people who present at a GIC seek surgery

This is vaginoplasty in case anyone is confused. It mainly relates to women.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaginoplasty

MTF have bowelvaginoplasty with some of the penile skin used. Totally different. It isn't really treating a vagina that is already there.

Intersex children also have vaginoplasty, to increase the size of the vagina, but there is a backlash against this.

MTF have bowelvaginoplasty with some of the penile skin used

Again - no they don't have bowel vaginoplasty. Some do but that's unusual. The most common technique is to use penile tissue - as bowel use is much more riskier.

And a slight distraction from the fact that up to 60% of people who present at a GIC will seek surgery.

This is Phalloplasty. It is usually more successful in men and is less successful in FTM.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalloplasty

It has been something the law grappled with for years. There are quite a few different categories which is the problem. Some people are simply allocated the wrong sex at birth - their organs are not clear etc. Others always feel trapped in the wrong body and always have. I am not against them "changing" gender particularly from a legal point of view. Some have always just liked wearing the wife's knickers when she's out and cross dressers but not needing or wanting to change sex entirely and they are obviously men.

I remember studying the legal topic in the 80s. It was only in 2005 you could legally change your gender. The wiki summary is quite good en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004

Sorry but you cannot create an opening in males without interfering in some way with the bowel and to keep the prostate safe. Ultimately the bowel will be used, usually at the end to help keep the void a void. It's a physiological thing.

Slught off topic Are there many late transitioning ftt does anyone know? Just wondering about the stats. The percentage of ftt presentungxat Gender identity clinics has rocketed. Are those all attributed to young people? The increases demand is being put down to better awareness but if that's the case, we'd expect to see a sizeable chunk of older females coming forward, the same as we are seeing older males coming forward. Is that the case? Do late transitioning ftt exist?

Ultimately the bowel will be used, usually at the end to help keep the void a void

No piece of the bowel was used in my surgery. HTH.

Toilets are a total red herring. No need for genital checks - if you genuinely, 100% look like a man then use the men's, nobody will stop you. Likewise MTT who absolutely look like women can freely use the women's.
However, as we all know but people try to pretend they don't, most trans people do not pass as the opposite sex at all. Most trans women walking into the women's loos will be identified immediately as a male. There is no need to look down their pants when you can see from the height, jaw, Adam's apple, build, hand and feet size, facial skin texture that they are male.
I know there are women who resemble men physically but we can all still tell they are female. I've met a lot of butches and have looked twice at a couple but have always been able to tell a female.
If you pass, use the toilet that matches your presentation, fine. If you don't, and you know if you do or don't, stay out of sex segregated spaces out of respect for those they are intended for. (That applies to men too, who don't need segregated spaces for safety reasons but are entitled to privacy and to the expectation that there will only be males present when they are exposing their genitals)

Ego, have you read about the surgeries done on young males who have been on puberty blockers for years? They are described as having essentially a micro penis so clearly not enough to invert into a neovagina. They have to use something called scrotal extenders (?) to create more flesh, or use skin from the thigh. Bowel tissue is used but obviously creates more risks of bowel issues later on, as well as smelly and dirty organs
I know you're happy with your surgery but does this make you think twice about transitioning children/teenagers?