Transgender women ...

[dorade]

... are men who have chosen to identify as trans women, that is people who to a greater or lesser degree adopt the cultural stereotypes generally associated with biological women.

It may be that many of these stereotypes are not in fact displayed by biological women (such as make-up, long hair and dresses).

Some transgender women take female hormones

Some transgender women also seek cosmetic surgery which includes feminising of faces, breast surgery and removal of the penis, although, contrary to common thought, only a very small minority of transgender women undergo this procedure.

Irrespective of the number of measures taken by an individual, at no point does a transgender woman cease being a biological male.

It is right and proper that transgender women are treated as equal human beings with equal rights. But as they remain biologically male that does not include access to women's only spaces such as refuges, changing rooms, prisons or women's sports.

None of the above should be in the least bit controversial.

As we discussed earlier, simply stating that one is "interested" in having surgery, is not the same as having the surgery. Why are the actual numbers of transwomen in the UK who have had genital surgery so hard to find? Why all this extrapolation?

Also, wouldn't "surgical transition" cover having breast augmentation?

What gets to me is that the mansplaining and gaslighting is so bloody obvious, but none of us can say so outright, or we will definitely get reported, most likely get censored, and possibly get banned.

But the mansplaining is so blatant, and so tiresome, and so fucking relentless!

No amount of wanting surgery or not wanting surgery or getting surgery or harassing women to just believe in the sex change fairies is going to actually make a man - a male adult human being - into a woman.

At best all that can be managed is convincing a lot of people that they have no choice but to lie about this or they will hurt some dudes feelings and be punished for it.

The NHS will know exactly how many procedures take place. I just don't think it suits the trans narrative to publish the figures. Giving the "percentage of patients intending surgery" can mean whatever you want it to.

But yes to "I really, really don't care any more. Leave women alone"

It's like a fucking rash.

innit just

Totally agree OP - these are my views exactly

Even if 60 percent of all transwomen undergo surgery 40 percent remain intact males. A proportion large enough to make legal access to women's spaces as a matter of course extremely problematic. Even if 90 percent of transwomen with/without a GRC underwent surgery the remaining 10 percent would still exist.

Males should be excluded from female spaces until the overwhelming female consensus is that they are allowed access. Until men sort out male violence I can't imagine that consensus ever being reached.

If a percentage of those who have surgery are the ones with female embodiment fantasy, it should exclude them purely on that basis.

It's not just about predators, it's about the reason they want access at all. From validation to violence, none of the reasons are justified. There is no justification at all.

"b.. b.. but my feeeelings!"

Personally, I'm in 100 percent agreement with you Datun. I see a range of opinions amongst women on the other reasons that men want access though.

What I find irritating is that threat of male violence is the one reason that all women and men should all be able to agree on, wherever they stand on the other reasons. It is so objectively and overwhelmingly provable. Just producing statistics from anywhere in the world should be enough to convince someone who cares to exclude males from women's spaces.

Whilst male violence still exists, the surgery rate is irrelevant (is what I was kackhandedly trying to express).

sticklebrix

Of course. Having your penis removed changes nothing. Women have boundaries. A man standing there without a penis doesn't make that untrue.

"Okay, so you have boundaries. But if I can bully you into believing that the reason for your boundaries do not apply to me personally, then that's okay, right?"

No.

Personal boundaries are not dictated by the person they are designed to exclude ffs.

But yes to "I really, really don't care any more. Leave women alone"

Amen sistahs.

I'm over it.

If I see a man in the ladies changing rooms I'm not much bothered about their surgery. They're men and they shouldn't be in there with me.

I've had cause to observe how very much stronger even men the same height as me are, which is why they pose a threat. If the average man was considerably shorter and weaker than the average woman we could fight them off with one hand behind our backs. But they aren't, and this really basic obvious fact needs frequent reiteration.

We're asked to allow transwomen into female only spaces because we're told they are at risk from men. But transwomen are very likely to be able to defend themselves against other men. It's not our fight, and allowing men into our spaces greatly increases the risk to women.

It's a minority of transwomen who have genital surgery because the majority are sexually motivated and the last thing they want is a restriction on their capacity to wank over their selfies. Anyone who explores online groups where such men obsessively focus on their gender knows that.

We're asked to allow transwomen into female only spaces

We're not asked, we're told.

^ Good point.

Reasons for women only spaces Part IV...

It's a more in depth twist on AGP from a woman who manned a sex line.

culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/04/27/but-theres-no-such-thing-as-autogynephilia-phone-sex-the-male-gaze-and-how-blanchard-and-trans-activists-both-get-it-wrong/

A comment from another woman who manned a rape crisis line.

The worst, for me, were men who called up pretending to be women who were raped and wanted to talk about it in very explicit detail. It was particularly horrible because, being a crisis line, we also spoke with ACTUAL women who were ACTUALLY raped. The entitlement these men felt to call up a crisis line with their masturbatory bullshit never ceased to astound, enrage and disgust me

Reasons for women only spaces Part IV...

It's a more in depth twist on AGP from a woman who manned a sex line.

culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/04/27/but-theres-no-such-thing-as-autogynephilia-phone-sex-the-male-gaze-and-how-blanchard-and-trans-activists-both-get-it-wrong/

A comment from another woman who manned a rape crisis line.

The worst, for me, were men who called up pretending to be women who were raped and wanted to talk about it in very explicit detail. It was particularly horrible because, being a crisis line, we also spoke with ACTUAL women who were ACTUALLY raped. The entitlement these men felt to call up a crisis line with their masturbatory bullshit never ceased to astound, enrage and disgust me

Datun - Christ I had no idea that was a thing.

nonameinspiration

You didn't know about autogynephilia? Or you didn't realise the depth of it? (I'm not sure I had to be honest).

This really is worth watching. Penny White talking about her daughter who wanted to trans.

Datun - Wow. I know about autogynephilia, I thought I had a fair grip on it, but it never occurred to me they'd stoop to that level. Jesus.

ChocChocPorridge

I knew it was a compulsion an obsession. But, like you, I'd no idea to the depths to which people would go.

I'm halfway through Penny White's video with tears in my eyes. I've seen her speak before - she's so normal, so reasonable, so nice - I don't have a daughter, I have sons, but I can see and feel the love for our children through her words. I didn't realise that she had a daughter who considered transitioning, I didn't realise that this is something she's been through, that she thought through, that she supported her daughter, but parented her, and her daughter desisted, feels guilt for not transing, and yet also realises that actually she's a lesbian, and that's fine.

Everyone should listen to her.

The Law Society practice note relating to employees is just some best practice guidance. It is not the law. People should look at the law only when they have a legal issue.