Transgender women ...

[dorade]

... are men who have chosen to identify as trans women, that is people who to a greater or lesser degree adopt the cultural stereotypes generally associated with biological women.

It may be that many of these stereotypes are not in fact displayed by biological women (such as make-up, long hair and dresses).

Some transgender women take female hormones

Some transgender women also seek cosmetic surgery which includes feminising of faces, breast surgery and removal of the penis, although, contrary to common thought, only a very small minority of transgender women undergo this procedure.

Irrespective of the number of measures taken by an individual, at no point does a transgender woman cease being a biological male.

It is right and proper that transgender women are treated as equal human beings with equal rights. But as they remain biologically male that does not include access to women's only spaces such as refuges, changing rooms, prisons or women's sports.

None of the above should be in the least bit controversial.

exist wasn't quite the right word, reading back my question. Are there many late transitioning ftt sounds better.

gallavich

I only posted on here to correct some misleading information that is regularly repeated about transwomen.

That was the fact that up to 60% of transwomen who present at a GIC intend to have surgery.

No one seems to have disputed that statement.

But your bowel would have been interfered with during surgery Ego. It's as simple as that.

Genital urinary surgery is complicated and does require bowel resection, especially in males.

The vagina is a muscular organ, self cleansing and closing. It closes together when not in use, it's not a void. This cannot happen with a neo vagina. The appearance of a vulva is a different matter. But the vulva is the outer sexual and urinary parts of the female.

Genital urinary surgery is complicated and does require bowel resection, especially in males

I have told you that I did not have bowel resection and you are explaining to someone who had the operation that they did have bowel resection.

I don't really know what else to say.

Fantastic post Gallavich common sense, polite and inclusive

In answers to the questions directly put to me. No my sympathy doesn't just lie with the people who were born male but identify as female. It is also with the people that were born female and who identify as male. It is with all humanity who struggle to exist.

Would I like to shower next to these people? I don't like to shower naked next to any stranger. Hence I use a private cubicle. Non issue....

Up to 60% of people presenting at clinics intend to have surgery, is not the same as saying 60% of males identifying as trans have their penis removed.

That was the fact that up to 60% of transwomen who present at a GIC intend to have surgery.

I should imagine that is because in order to have surgery you have to present to the clinic to get documentation and endorsement of your intention. I would expect a high number of people presenting at the clinic to be after surgery (higher than 60%, in fact).

It's all the other people, who don't want surgery, who don't present to the clinic.

It's all the other people, who don't want surgery, who don't present to the clinic

And who won't be able to get documentation to support transition as has been discussed on MN.

Does that surgery mean genital surgery or does it include breast implants and facial surgery too?

or does it include breast implants and facial surgery too

I don't think breast implants are offered anymore and facial surgery is not on the NHS.

Thanks.

Saying you are "seeking" to have genital surgery when you present at a gender clinic is not the same as having it. Any firm figures on how many follow through? Because I feel it's rather obfuscated in that Guardian article.

And who won't be able to get documentation to support transition as has been discussed on MN.

But that's the whole point, most of them don't.

Although I think spaces should be segregated according to birth sex, I do think there's a difference between people who transition fully, either with or without surgery, and need to certificate, and those who don't.

Any firm figures on how many follow through

I thought the consensus on MN was that a very small minority of transwomen don't have surgery and want to keep their penis.

I have given the figures of people who present at a GIC and intend to have surgery. 60%.

The waiting lists are very long and it can be a long wait for surgery. So someone who has presented at a GIC, who has gone to an NHS doctor and got ID as part of the transition process is very likely to intend to have surgery - although there could be a long wait.

There are also plenty of transwomen out there who have had surgery.

That's not an answer. Unless you've got reliable figures for what proportion of the male transgender community have genital surgery I'll take the gender clinics' and Guardian's statement with a big pinch of salt.

But that's the whole point, most of them don't

What do you mean by that?
Who are 'them' ?

How are you defining transwomen?

I think a transwomen is someone who presents at a GP, declares they have gender dysphoria, is referred to a GIC and starts to undergo transition. That gives them legal rights under the law.

60% of people who refer to a GIC intend to undergo surgery,

How are you defining a transwoman?

I'll take the gender clinics' and Guardian's statement with a big pinch of salt

It's probably more reliable than the statement at the start.

removal of the penis, although, contrary to common thought, only a very small minority of transgender women undergo this procedure

But I suspect people will still repeat that statement, won't they?

I agree it depends how you define transgender. I don't think you can claim it's restricted to people who present at gender clinics. Not today. And they say they intend to undergo surgery. Why aren't there any figures given for how many actually do?

The statement comes from somewhere. Let's check out that source. I can't do it at the moment, does anyone know where it comes from?

I will myself have a look later this evening or tomorrow to unpack the statement about a minority of TW having genital surgery, but I'm sure someone else might post it by then.

According to the doctor quoted in this article, only 25-30% have any surgery.

Oops link: www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/02/09/heres-how-sex-reassignment-surgery-works/?utm_term=.927c051a73ad

"dorade Fri 24-Mar-17 09:31:30"

OP, correct, agreed.