Cat calling

[Cocklodger]

I'm sure this one has been done to death, I don't frequent the board often tbh.
now I hate catcalling. I'm sure every woman has or will experience it. Its not pleasant. It makes me angry and sometimes it scares me,
But today I've seen a post on FB (with someone of a similar view point to me) being ripped into, because
''Its just a compliment''
she's a ''fun sucker''
''I bet she would've REALLY just asked for his number''... Those comments came from women.
Now I, being me decided to defend this person and found the same comments hurled at me. I've now just left it because I've gotten to the point where I can no longer even try to come up with a coherent argument. I have also received personal insults(about my appearance and the fact I'm obviously a bit fat since I was recently pregnant baby under 2wks old)
i just didn't realize how acceptable it was, I genuinely thought it was wildly noted as pretty fucking annoying (If I'm being generous)
I don't even know what to say.
Wtf is wrong with people?
Can someone please reassure me that I'm not wrong? I know I sound bloody pathetic but for some reason finding out how acceptable it is has actually quite scared and shaken me a lot....

oh give over Pizan. I live in the gayest city in the world, outside of San Francisco. Our Village is, or used to be, a fav place of mine in the City. Your DH is talking nonsense.

Men will abuse weak men on the street, not because they are men though.

Never heard a lesbian cat call another woman. In certain scenarios I've heard women catcall other men.

That still doesn't mean that when men harass women on the street there isn't a level of sexism/misogyny/intimidation because they are women.

*by men to women and girls I meant.

It's really frustrating to see this topic being taken in this direction when it's something which is so commonplace for girls and women, and often so intimidating, for me and my friends anyway.

An yy IAmAMy - the regularity is an important point.

Scallops

I'm not sure you understand what constitutes an honest discussion. I am trying to explain that your narrative is ignoring my points, and you keep replying to me and character as a person, this is intimidation, not what I am doing, which is using evidence and opinion to highlight my point.

Please exaplin how i'm intimidating you? By being smart, or by disagreeing? That seems pretty fishy.

We were discussing male to female harassment, but if you disagree why science says it occurs, then I have to frame the discussion in simpler terms by using female to female, and female to male harassment as an example.

You can't deny my points that group dynamics effect behaviour, then deny my evidence when I use other examples to prove my point. Thats dishonest.

It is scallops. When I was in New York in the summer it happened to me every single day I went walking about with a couple of (female) friends. Even in school uniform it happened a fair few times here, never mind normal clothes. There is absolutely no way men or boys are cat called by men or women anything like regularly, most probably never will be in their lifetimes.

Pizanfan you have completely ignored every post I've made refuting your points.

It's interesting when people use opinions on harrassment by other genders.

As I mentioned earlier, gay men can be very sexually agressive, and my OH has been grabbed so many times I have lost count, you know what he describes it as? It's not harrassment, as when women call at men they don't find it harrassment.

When you start vicitmising and infantilising all women you don't do justice to women, empowerment and understanding is so much more effective in lifting women up!

If we all believe men and women are equal, then we should recognise the equally poor behaviour when it occurs, and currently it occurs more toward women by straight men because of the power dynamic, once we empower women and change that power dynamic then we'll see women do it to men, as the trends have been showing.

As a young man I twice had random women try to strike up a conversation with me as I was merely going about my business. I had my bottom squeezed several times in nightclubs, I even recall one girl, after I had walked past their group on the way home, run after meeting and start making a growling / purring noise before her friend pulled her away. There was that time in the student union the girl sitting next to me just lay down and put her head in my lap. I could actually go on...but there is of course a very clear difference which was that I loved all of it and never once felt threatened. So women do do it, but we can all surely agree it's not the same.

I don't want anyone to harass anyone on the street. Seeing as it's pretty much entirely men doing it to women and girls, maybe that should be the focus and they should...stop.

Iamamy

I have ignored your posts since you told me your age, I dont feel comfortable having to respond to someone that young with such little experience or education. Please don't take that as an offense, it has nothing to do with you personally, it's just that having experience working with teens I understand the responsibility people have on their mental well being, especially young women.

You have to understand I am a strong feminist, and I will happily fight for womens rights (if and when we lose any), and against anyone who hurts another person or animal. I dislike dishonest people who accuse one race, gender, or religion of something while preaching equality.

Well that's up to you. I'm educated as well as I can be at my age, I may have little life experience but sadly I do have experience of this topic, which says a lot about it. My mental well being would be vastly improved by men not cat calling me.

growapear - yep, all those things too. But having my bum pinched regularly as a waiter when I was young and beautiful IS nowhere near, as you say, the shite women have to put up with. Which you Pizan seems keen to obscure for some reason.

Growapear

Why would you not report that to the police? We are all equal, you were sexually assaulted, cat called, and intimidated...

Thats the crux of my argument, women are being infantilised and told they are victims, whereas men actually ignore it.

The people on this thread will argue we are all 100% equal, that men aren't any stronger than women, but women are always the victim, does that make sense?

pizanfan you've stated your opinion that group dynamics is the only theory that explains men catcalling women. Does it explain why those men feel that they can catcall women? Why is that the avenue they take as a reaction to the group dynamic? Why does it involve humiliating women? Why don't they pick a different activity?

So your partner is a gay man? I thought you said you were female?

Equal doesn't mean the same. I have equal worth to my DP. He is massively stronger than me, so we are not the same. I am physically weaker than him and nearly all other men. It's not a judgement just a fact.

My partner is a gay man?! Who said that?

Speak

Reread the only 2 men on this thread, they both are reporting being grabbed in public, cat called and layed upon etc,

If your question is 'why do men feel like they can do this?' then why aren't you asking the question 'why do women feel like they can do this?'

I beleive in individuals, most are nice, some do silly things, but my argument on group dynamics holds up when the 2 male commenters receive the exact same treatment in the same group dynamics, however view it differently.

Which was my point originally, perception is massive, I'm told to be carefull walking to my car, and out at night alone, despite having a tiny chance of anything happening, and if I was male have a much higher chance of violence etc...

Tell women they are victims, they will victimise themselves!

No, I absolutely was not intimidated, that's the point.

I have to go now, will log on later.

Can I just say though, it's nice to not get personal attacks and insults, we can disagree without attaking posters.

I will catch back up, really enjoying an actual debate lol

So let me get this straight :we women shouldn't be upset by cat calling because it happens to men and because lesbians catcall people too?

I feel like I've wandered into CIF on the Graun. Can't we have a discussion about this without a derailment into men's issues?

Interesting...Had a quick look at Group Dynamics on google Scholar. Nothing about cat calling or sexual comments. The only discussion of male and female is hidden from preview form so I can't read it. What I can read is mostly a fairly standard first year psychology textbook. I can remember a few of the examples from my degree many years ago.

It's stretching it fairly far to suggest that group dynamics as discussed in that particular publication back up your assumptions as expressed on this thread. You'll need to do better than that. D-

Silent

Please go reread the thread, that was a comment without knowledge of thread development

My goodness this is frustrating. Women and girls are cat called ALL THE TIME. Day in, day out, from about when we're just teenagers. By men. It sometimes turns aggressive. It's intimidating and demeaning. It simply does not happen in anything like the same way or with any kind of regularity to men. As for this "group dynamics" men do it in groups and on their own as I've already said. But then you're ignoring me so I don't know why I'm bothering.

Why do significantly more men than women feel that catcalling is an appropriate response to the group dynamics they find themselves in? (If we are to believe that group dynamics is the only driver here). Is that better?

(PizanFan, if you feel you have been personally attached, do please report those posts)