Cat calling

[Cocklodger]

I'm sure this one has been done to death, I don't frequent the board often tbh.
now I hate catcalling. I'm sure every woman has or will experience it. Its not pleasant. It makes me angry and sometimes it scares me,
But today I've seen a post on FB (with someone of a similar view point to me) being ripped into, because
''Its just a compliment''
she's a ''fun sucker''
''I bet she would've REALLY just asked for his number''... Those comments came from women.
Now I, being me decided to defend this person and found the same comments hurled at me. I've now just left it because I've gotten to the point where I can no longer even try to come up with a coherent argument. I have also received personal insults(about my appearance and the fact I'm obviously a bit fat since I was recently pregnant baby under 2wks old)
i just didn't realize how acceptable it was, I genuinely thought it was wildly noted as pretty fucking annoying (If I'm being generous)
I don't even know what to say.
Wtf is wrong with people?
Can someone please reassure me that I'm not wrong? I know I sound bloody pathetic but for some reason finding out how acceptable it is has actually quite scared and shaken me a lot....

Speak

And thats a very valid point, one we have not discussed yet. A cat call from typical scenario ie building site, night club, on the street with groups of young men, or as the OP stated a group of young boys etc is childish and need adressing.

A guy on his own is a different story, and his actions can range from perfectly innocent and attempting to start a conversation, to very sinister. I would be more wary of this type, however would a man run for his life if a woman said something to him on the street? I am not scared of men in general, and would comfortably confront him, given the scenario obviously.

I'm not sure who mocked me for trying to understand why people do what they do, but it's quite simple. Criminal investigators study criminal psychology, in order to understand why someone does something you can recognise how to stop them doing something, the OP asked how do we stop this?

Like every other problem, we understand why it happens and work out how to stop it from happening, if you think having the victim decide the justice then the problem will always persist.

The other issue is that some women actually like it to a point, react positively, and encourage it. So if we are to acknowledge everyones right to think and feel what they want, then who is right, the opposer of cat calling, or the promoter?

Scallops

Thats a very valid point, if it isn't about the victim, then why do men always do it to women?

They don't, they do it to weaker people than them, see male prisons and statistics on intimidation, violence and rape!

Feelings aren't right or wrong.

People should not do things that are potentially intimidating to other people. I'm sure those women who find it flattering being told to 'Smile, love' will be less affected by it not happening to them than those who are intimidated/angry/upset having it happen to them.

Just like some people like to be beaten up - doesn't mean to say it should be allowed.

Why are women 'weaker' than men?

You said it yourself, Pizanfan, that for men that catcall, it isn't about the victim. That, for me, is because they don't think of women as equal human beings. It is symptomatic of a sexist attitude, whether knowingly or not. So I would like to see it stopped, and the fact that some women may like it doesn't change that fact.

Theyre also not important to 7 billion people worldwide.

As much empathy as I have, emotions and opinions are what they are and well it's not to me to invoke anything in other people.

Just to add to my prison comment, it isn't just male prisons, or even male groups. Female prisons and lesbian relationships are also very violent, including cat calling in the lesbian club community, how does this fit the cat calling scene?

I really don't try to sound patronising, but when I respond to peoples points, and I think very rationally, and just keep hearing the same rhetoric without acknowledgement of my comments ir prison rape, then you can see why i'm dumbing down my responses to hammer home my thoughts.

I can apologise for the condisending nature, however it is pretty obvious people don't want to acknowledge facts, or aren't understanding them.

There you go being patronising again... there is another explanation for why people are responding to you how you expect...

How horrible that so many women attacked you for defending the other woman and objecting to catcalling. I agree that it's horrible, intimidating and demeaning (as it's intended to be). I don't know any girls my age who don't hate it even if some have sadly accepted it as just one of those things which happens to girls and women. I just hope I'm brave enough to start challenging it one day, unfortunately it can turn aggressive even just ignoring it so actually answering back is something I'll have to build up to confidence-wise.

Speak

You're not readin what i'm writing, your concluding men think of women as objects, but ignoring when men do it to men (prison), when women do it to women (prison), or when women do it to men.

I find your opinion wrong because you are ignoring what is being said and reiterating the same rhetoric, so please just answer the question:

If men think of women as objects, as evidenced by cat calling, and group dynamics have nothing to do with it then please explain prison violence, in both male and female prisons, and lesbian domestic abuse rates?

Scallops - you ask why are women weaker than men? seriously? Are you talking physically? emotionally? Intellectually? what are you talking about to frame that question?

Do I pick it up correctly that you are male, Pizan?

Pizanfan you are changing the subject entirely. This thread is clearly about street harassment. I have suffered street harassment since I was 14, in school uniform and in home clothes, from all kinds and all ages of men. I have never had any from women (unsurprisingly) nor have my brothers or any boys I know experienced it from anyone. Why is it that cat calling is suffered almost entirely on the street, across the world, by women and girls and perpetrated by men?

You are being patronising, again! Looks like it's your style. Just because you think I'm spouting rhetoric doesn't mean I haven't read or understood what you've written. I simply don't agree with your reading of it.

No, I think PizanFan said she was a woman on some other thread.

It's reassuring to know the next man who tells me to smile then decides I'm a miserable bitch who needs a good shagging or who tells me he would then decides I'm not all that and a cocky bitch for ignoring him is actually not sexist at all because prison violence.

Strictlypan

No, I am very much female, and a feminist, and in fact if you are trying to disable my points by calling me a man, and therefore mysoginist etc then please just read what I have posted!

Iamamy

Where have I changed the discussion, cat calling in groups is a social competition, and can be explained by psychological needs to secure positions within a group. It isn't about the victim, it is about the group, which is why it happens to men in male prisons, to women in female prisons, and to men by females (trust me it happens I have done it). Have you ever been to a male strip club? Have you ever seen a hen do with a young male bartender or waiter etc?

My point is not pro cat calling, it's pro honesty, you cannot blame all men, it's not honest to blame all men! It's not fair to say it's happened to all women, thats also dishonest!

What we can say is that it is bad, but if we understand why it happens we can come to a clear concensus on how to treat it as a problem.

Do you not think so?

Speak

Don't get offended, stop avoiding my points, it really would be that simple. Have i not acknowledged peoples opinions when they make valid points? Have you responded to my points or questions?

No, you want to insult my writing style, instead of engaging. Why is that?

I'm 16, I'd need fake ID to get in a male strip club. I didn't even think there were many/any, there are strip clubs with women stripping all over the place in every city around the western world though. This is still completely different from the street harassment women and girls get regularly, from men, which is just not suffered by men or boys. As for "in groups", I've had as much if not more cat calling from lone men as from men or boys in groups. Who's blaming all men anyway? Most men probably don't do it, many men do. The majority of men who don't should challenge the men who do to help stop it.

IAMAMY

Is that really what you got from that? Are you twisting what I said, or just didn't understand it?

Why can't we have an honest discussion?

No, no attempts at anthing there. Pizan. I'm sure you doing a fine job without any assistance.

Just honestly wasn't clear, that's all.

Men don't catcall other men on the street, Pizan although I'm sure amongst the annals of history one man somewhere will have been catcalled.

I agree, they do intimidate, bully and rape other men. There is a real problem with male violence. If men do intimidate other men on the street it is not because they are men. It is because they have some other perceived 'weakness' in the eye of the perpetrate e.g. race; sexual preference; disability (see where I'm going here) or they have had some separate kind of argument/dislike/unpleasant interaction. It isn't because of their sex.

You didn't answer my question about why are women 'weaker' than men.

And the only person not having an honest discussion is you, Pizan. You introduce spurious 'scientific evidence'. You introduce male on male violence in prisons when we are talking about male on female harassment and then get arsey when someone calls you on it. You dismiss women as being hysterical for being intimidated yet then you tell us men do this because women are weaker than them - so are in fact trying to intimidate us.

Okay. Pizan , men don't cat call each other. I'm a male, never ever been subject to this, and no male I've ever known has. We would have mentioned this to each other. On a very odd ocassion a group of pissed up women on a night out may have shouted stuff. BUT this is a world away from the harrassment which is being referred to here.

I'd also say it's disrespectful in the extreme to undermine someone's experience as a victim, and suggest they should be eracting in a wholey different way. fwiw

Men do cat call each other on the street, as a regular patron of LGTB clubs my OH gets almost molested on a regular basis!

Gay men are very aggressive, especially toward straight men, but you have to realise it's the dynamic that makes this, not the gender! A group of gay men will cat call a lone straight man, if they know they are collectively stronger than them.

Men will abuse weak men on the street, women will cat call a lone young guy they deem themselves stronger than, Lesbian women will catcall women on the street...

Your ignoring all these scenarios because you don't want to hear them!

There is a real problem with violence, but again it's strength based. Women commit domestic violence in near similar rates these days 40% (not cited), and domestic violence in the lesbian community is higher than the countries rate.

So how do these stats link in with your comment of 'male violence'?

Your ignoring so much to focus on this man is the problem narrative, when evidence doesn't back it up. Why?

There are so many issues in this country and world, honesty about them is key to fixing them!

WIth regards to weakness, I'm waiting for context as I asked earlier.

Oh sorry Pizan I missed that. Well you were the one who said it - what context did you mean it in? That's why I asked the question.

How bizarre that myself and every girl I know has not only experienced cat calling but have had numerous instances of it already whilst no boys I'm friends with ever have at the hands of anyone, and StrictlyPan is also confirming that neither he nor any man he knows has. It's ridiculous you're bringing this up when street harassment of men happens to women and girls so regularly.