Cat calling

[Cocklodger]

I'm sure this one has been done to death, I don't frequent the board often tbh.
now I hate catcalling. I'm sure every woman has or will experience it. Its not pleasant. It makes me angry and sometimes it scares me,
But today I've seen a post on FB (with someone of a similar view point to me) being ripped into, because
''Its just a compliment''
she's a ''fun sucker''
''I bet she would've REALLY just asked for his number''... Those comments came from women.
Now I, being me decided to defend this person and found the same comments hurled at me. I've now just left it because I've gotten to the point where I can no longer even try to come up with a coherent argument. I have also received personal insults(about my appearance and the fact I'm obviously a bit fat since I was recently pregnant baby under 2wks old)
i just didn't realize how acceptable it was, I genuinely thought it was wildly noted as pretty fucking annoying (If I'm being generous)
I don't even know what to say.
Wtf is wrong with people?
Can someone please reassure me that I'm not wrong? I know I sound bloody pathetic but for some reason finding out how acceptable it is has actually quite scared and shaken me a lot....

*attacked

My partner is a gay man?! Who said that?

I made that assumption based on your repeated observations about your partner being regularly harassed in gay clubs.

"As I mentioned earlier, gay men can be very sexually aggressive, and my OH has been grabbed so many times I have lost count"

"Men do cat call each other on the street, as a regular patron of LGTB clubs my OH gets almost molested on a regular basis!"

I made that assumption that as your partner, with a male pronoun, is frequently in gay nightclubs being harassed on the street (in a nightclub. how does that work?) Given I know very few straight couples that frequent gay clubs, either he's receiving harassment because he's not welcome in gay clubs because he's straight with his female partner in tow, or he is gay.

"PS I've cat called plenty, at comedy shows, at strip clubs, and on the street. In the right scenarios it is perfectly acceptable"

Nope. NEVER acceptable. Perhaps you are part of the problem.

Amy

I'm not ignoring you, we've adressed your points earlier in the thread, individual responsibility etc...

People are cat called all the time, women have the higher rate of it right now, why?

If your question isn't why, and you don't want to find out why then ask yourself why you don't want to know that!

But to be honest, you have to look at power within relationships, in group and out groups, group dynamics etc...

People as an entity use power over other people, men in prison do it to weaker men, lesbians do it to weaker women, men do it to women, groups of older women do it to young men, gay men do it to men...

It's about power, and their place within a certain setting, not about intimidation, therefore if we keep calling women weak and victims, then it is highlighting them as targets.

I haven't said you are intimidating me .

I've consistently said men do this to intimidate us. You are the one saying on one hand they aren't doing it to intimidate us and then on the other hand they do it because we are 'weaker' than them. So in fact they are doing it to intimidate us.

I have ignored your posts since you told me your age, I dont feel comfortable having to respond to someone that young with such little experience or education. I am truly shocked by that comment. So patronising. Do you need education to have felt the effects of street harassment? How much experience constitutes enough? I'm considerably older and agreeing with IAmAmy. Do I not have enough experience. In fact I would say street harassment gets less with age so, in fact Amy's youth is very relevant.

Are men and boys catcalled all the time by as they go about their business, by groups of women? I'll ask my DP later if that happens a lot on his way to work, or during his lunch break. Maybe it happens when he takes my DS1 swimming?

Tell women they are victims, they will victimise themselves! No they will gain validation that what they feel is valid they will know that is the perpetrators who are in the wrong and that is not dependent on their ability to cope with it.

I am if a different sex, age and other stuff probs to Amy and I am agreeing with her. Her age etc isn't relevant here and your patronising her was pretty awful.

To go back to cocklodger's original question, this article from the HuffPost has an interesting list of things you can do to combat street harassment:

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1228198

If I am being honest I would be happy to be whistled at, it gives me a confidence boost.

Realising this makes me reflect on my own socialisation as a woman. I would describe myself as a radical feminist, I am active in some feminist causes. I have raised my sons to know that catcalling is wrong. I know catcalling is wrong. Yet it still makes me 'happy'. This is how fucking well programmed I am, despite my education and views my emotional reaction is gratitude at being validated by a man.

Now if you aren't a radical feminist, if you aren't active in feminism and feminist debate but your gut reaction is the same as mine I would imagine you need to justify it. I like it so it can't be bad! I can't like and participate in my own oppression therefore it is not oppressive.

^^ I meant to change that first line, I am not happy to be cat called. I meant my initial emotional reaction is one of happiness.

But if you were never catcalled again, ever, Miffer, would that be as bad or worse than being catcalled and feeling intimidated? Would you miss it? Or would you find that you don't need that validation.

Just a thought experiment as I know exactly where you are coming from. If a bloke said to me 'nice eyes' I'd probably be quite flattered. 'Smile'...less so! There is a wide variety of types of catcalls!

Whilst I agree there are different types of catcalls I'd not be flattered if a man said to me, on the street, out of nothing "nice eyes". I would be concerned where it could go if I didn't say "thanks", which I wouldn't want to do, as I don't want to be commented on as if I exist for men to judge. Compliments should be in a social setting or one in which it wouldn't be potentially threatening to the recipient.

Thank you for the agreement StrictlyPan!

I would be concerned where it could go if I didn't say "thanks"... Yep, good point!

Pretty much, Silent, yes. That and disagreeing is attack...

"The other time was on the street at early hours in the morning...I saw a women 5 yards from me actually pull her top up FFS."

Dude, you are so very much lying.

I dunno what alternate universe Pizanfan is living in, but in terms of gay men and lesbians, the only time I would ever have expected to see anything like that is on the gay scene where someone has obviously made a big effort to get dressed up. Not on the number 9 bus when you're slogging into work on a wet wednesday.............

Because (apart from straight visitors, and straight hen-nights etc) on the gay scene, there is some feeling of ownership of that space, for a small amount of time. Whereas on the street that isn't Old Compton -- men feel they own that space and establish that by the means that we all know. After all, they aren't just throwing out random comments at everyone they walk past, in order to make us all feel happy, they are statistically-significantly being aimed at women by men. And the sexist nature of that dynamic doesn't disappear even if the women can con themselves into thinking they don't mind it, or even if some of the women (or even many of the women!) like it. It's a thing men do to women they don't know. Which, if you want to get all academic, would tell you a lot about the way the sexes interact in public spaces. The fact that they think it impresses other men, or the fact they need their buddies as back-up in order to do it, or they they think women like it, or that they intended to be nice, or whatever, is irrelevant compared to the bare statistics, it's a thing men aim at women...................

Feminism 101 frankly, which makes me think that although they may be a libertarian, Pizanfan isn't a feminist in anyway I would understand the word. Ye shall know them by their opinion to street harassment (yep, and I mean Paris Lees as well! :-) ).

Can we ever EVER talk about an issue that affects women without someone coming along and saying

" you need to see it from a man's point of view "

Or " it happens to men too " .

The entire Internet is FULL of men's views and men's concerns . There are plenty places to talk about street harassment of gay men , dozens of LGBT forums and sites . There's even a LGBTQ board here on MN. This is feminism and it's about WOMEN. The clues in the name .

Could all you handmaidens / MRA just jog on and let us talk please .

scallopsrgreat

Cat calling is all bad, it doesn't matter that it has never intimidated me or that I get an initial 'buzz' from it. It's all bad.

What I didn't mention was the feeling of self loathing after this initial 'buzz'.

I've been an out lesbian for 30-odd years and I have NEVER been catcalled by another woman (or catcalled one, either). Now, I'm not saying lesbian relationships are all kittens and rainbows (and I agree there is a problem with DV in lesbian and gay relationships, but sticking here to the issue of the thread which is catcalling) but for me one of the big pluses of being a lesbian has been living with less of that stuff.

I would never say 'lesbians have better relationships' - all kinds of relationships can be good, bad, or mixed - but catcalling is not about relationships. It's about men objectifying women and putting them in their place. I have never had a woman do it to me, ever, and I'd love to see the 'scientific evidence' that lesbians do it as much as men.

pizs posts seem to be rude, patronising and condescending

Very hard to ignore as well

Pizanfan is looking at things from a males perspective. Studies on behaviour are generally carried out from the male perspective (see the debate between Kohlberg and Gilligan about male centred research in psychology). Unfortunately presently there are very few women with a real feminist analysis, challenging male assumptions in the social sciences. This is having, and will continue to have, dire consequences for females in the real world.

Males see women as sexual objects and possessions, catcalling is seeing females as sexual objects. Catcalling also reinforces males higher status to himself, the woman he is doing it to, and any others around. As it is saying; I am a male (it is my right to sexually objectify females), you are only a female (you exist only as a sex object). Of course it will bond a male more to other men, as it is demeaning one group of people (females) to enforce the superiority of another group of people (males). Males bond over the sexual objectifican of women, in order to create a feeling of superiority in themselves in other ways also. i.e. Going to strip clubs, watching porn together at stag nights, going to brothels together etc.

Thinking that if only females do these things too it will make things ok, is false reasoning. It assumes that females are of equal social status to males, and have equal power in society in the first place, which is false. This is why the guy that dances around shaking his bum on that advert is considered funny, he's status is not lowered, if a woman did that hers would be. It is why women are intimated by males catcalling, and males are not if females do it. The sexes are not valued equally in society.

Women are raised to seek and value male approval. Feminism was invented, in part, to raise women's consciousness about how women have been raised to find males abuse, and exploitation of them appealing. Women who say they like catcalling are acting exactly how they have been trained to do, a feminist would not blame the woman. She would blame the male society, that trains women to find their own exploitation at the hands of males appealing.

It is no surprise that those who like to defend offensive male behaviour always like to try and say "lesbians are no better than het males". Lesbians are not males, they do not commit the vast amount of rapes, sexual assault, child abuse, and violence against women, etc., that would be men. Of course men control the institutions that define and record these things. It is disingenuous to pretend males have no horse in this race. If they could find a way to make lesbians appear as bad as males they would, without hesitation. Both excusing males for their behaviour, and claiming lesbians are just like het males comes from misogyny, does not matter how it is dressed up.

I'm more likely to get direct abuse/threats than (okay, I refuse to call it cat-calling because it disparages cats for starters!) than supposed compliments, but it is all street harassment. In some ways, the direct abuse is slightly easier because at least if someone asks you what he said, they can understand straight away that he really, REALLY wasn't trying to be nice, or become your friend, or start a conversation, cos, you know, he's a nervous straight guy who finds it hard to chat-up women.............

The supposed compliment, well gets you coming and going! He can always claim he was just trying to be nice! If you react aggressively, then you get labelled an uptight feminist or a lesbian. Or, as some have already said on here, you get the initial, automatic, pleased reaction, then the disgust at the depth of your own training.

And I'm just so angry that we are still struggling, however many 'walking through NY' videos we make, that this is an issue for women, and not a great turn-on or just a bit of fun.....................

I was massively put off by Pizanfan's tone but if she is saying some men cat call to bolster their status within their group - well duh.

That might well be the primary objective, but the secondary objective (subconscious as it might be) is to intimidate otherwise it wouldn't work (i.e. If they got punched every time they did it). All evidenced by the fact that if you do stand up to them it turns nasty pretty quickly. Then, intimidation becomes their primary objective in order to maintain (or reclaim) their status.

The perceived threat is very real. Who wants to be followed down the street with nasty insults ringing in their ears.

Ok, so on this page I have been called a liar, not a feminist, my OH is assumed gay, my own research is from a male perspective, I'm rude, I look at things from a mans perspective, I'm part of the problem, oh and been called Dude... (i'll accept patronising and condisending, mainly because I have to be to hammer a point home to people who refuse to listen).

Despite all this I do will continue to fight for everyone of you, man woman or child.

What is a little bit odd, is that it's fine to disagree with me, I like it, and I enjoy the debate, but the debate has to be honest!

I view everything I say and do as pushing to empower women, and advance the feminist cause, however I think my brand of feminism is clearly different to a lot of new wave gals, I don't believe in the big bad patriarchy, I trust a broken system can be fixed. I don't hate men, I seek to educate (with a firm hand if necesary), and I have intertwined my passion for womens rights and opportunities with my career at certain stages throughout the years.

You may dislike what I say, but it isn't opinion based on anecdote (although some of it is obviously), it is opinion based on research. I need to hold a discussion that is fair, true and stands for every person on the planet, using specific contexts to judge the scenario's, otherwise what I preach will be dismissed by people I educate (mostly men) because I'm too extreme.

Noone ever learnt a lesson by being called names and attacked, they require empathy, involvement, and the chance to critically analyse within their own space.

How many have you have seen results to fixing cat calling by telling men they are sexist and oppressive? I guarentee noone has, whereas I've viewed young male students take responsibility and offer solutions to behaviour they have admitted to.