Cat calling

[Cocklodger]

I'm sure this one has been done to death, I don't frequent the board often tbh.
now I hate catcalling. I'm sure every woman has or will experience it. Its not pleasant. It makes me angry and sometimes it scares me,
But today I've seen a post on FB (with someone of a similar view point to me) being ripped into, because
''Its just a compliment''
she's a ''fun sucker''
''I bet she would've REALLY just asked for his number''... Those comments came from women.
Now I, being me decided to defend this person and found the same comments hurled at me. I've now just left it because I've gotten to the point where I can no longer even try to come up with a coherent argument. I have also received personal insults(about my appearance and the fact I'm obviously a bit fat since I was recently pregnant baby under 2wks old)
i just didn't realize how acceptable it was, I genuinely thought it was wildly noted as pretty fucking annoying (If I'm being generous)
I don't even know what to say.
Wtf is wrong with people?
Can someone please reassure me that I'm not wrong? I know I sound bloody pathetic but for some reason finding out how acceptable it is has actually quite scared and shaken me a lot....

Amy, generally, I wouldn't advise interacting with them either positively or negatively. They might be fine, but by the same token, they might become violent. Maybe call someone on your mobile? Or put headphones in (but don't listen to music) so you become insulated?

Your experience in New York is of a piece with experiences I've had and it must have been really frightening for you, I'm so sorry that happened to you.

pizan

I dont know enough about her to be a fan but i find the idea that she was a writer when that wasn't seen as something a woman did very interesting

I generally ignore them Xenophile as I don't feel able to do anything else, I wish I shouted and confronted them but you're right, ignoring is the most likely way to just walk off without any more attention/any aggression. Most of the time ignoring them does work, nothing more gets said, but it still gets to me and feels demeaning. Still I'd rather that than being attacked or get abuse thrown at me. I do use the mobile tactic actually, when I get harassed now I reach for my mobile almost as an instinct, it's silly really but almost to look "cool" or nonplussed, as if I'm too busy with interacting with people to care.

It was horrible and happens to so many women and girls. Thank you.

What are you actually after Pizan? You seem to be trying to start a fight. Please do try to be less dismissive, rude and condescending if you want the honest debate you claim you do.

Your feminism is clearly very different to mine. I don't accept that naming a problem is victimising women. And I certainly don't accept that group dynamics are all there is to it. Street harassment is founded in male entitlement, and in the belief that men sometimes seem to have that women are merely scenery props they can pass comment on as they go about their important daily lives. It's a case of not seeing women you don't know as full human beings.

Rufus

I'm not especially knowledgable, however I was a little obsessed with her a few years ago. Feminist or not (massivley debatable in certain circles), the empowerment and identity promotion was very very interesting.

We do have seemed to have moved quite a lot from the OP's intent re being cat called by males.
fwiw I have two sisters, one older, one younger who both recall experiences relayed by Amy. And every adult woman I have known say the same thing.

As a poster further up says, how is it we go from the OP to 1. blokes do it to other blokes, 2. women do it too, 3. gay men are socially and sexually invasive, 4. A young woman's experience is "claimed".

You indicate that you are here to discuss but I doubt you are, frankly. The awfulness of the cat called experience ( though I don't experience it) is just that. My teenage daughter now gets it. To subvert the expression of the awfulness isn't doing her any help or favours. You appear to be part of her problem.

StrictlyPan I totally agree with that. Sorry to hear your daughter gets it too though sadly unsurprising. It needs to stop.

Venusinscorpio

Ok, i'll take your points on board, and will cease the annoyance I have developed...

Lets be honest and constructive:

Are women weaker than men?

Weaker in what way, exactly?

Relative weakness is irrelevant in this context.

Well yes Amy, thanks. She is resilient and has good boundaries but the sort of scatter gun posts from Pizan, as an alleged feminists, isn't exactly an indication of how well her boundaries should be maintained.

Strictlyplan

Without your dishonest suggestions in which you twist what you read and deicided I was part of the problem, despite researching in, and activism in solving the problem, you have literally just lied again.

You claim you have not been catcalled, but up thread admitted to another male poster you have been cat called, and sexually harrassed by women.

Let me ask you, what feminism literature do you read? What sort of activism are you currently engaged in? What exactly are you doing to fix the problem?

StrictlyPan I imagine she's a similar age to me, so hope she has support from her friends too. My friends and I are all with her, we shouldn't have to be resilient against such things though.

No, he's saying he doesn't experience the awfulness of the experience. Happening once or twice in his life so far, in specific circumstances is not the same as his child being subjected to an ongoing sequence of it as she goes about her life.

How can you say relative weakness is irrelevant?

Weakness is perceived, in a way men will target weaker men to abuse also. Weakness is everything!

If a woman is 6'6 and 19 stone with bulging muscles, do you think the average man would cat call her?

Perception of the victim is also key, as studied previously victimhood can be addictive, and people who feel victimised feel the internal narrative of being right. Benefits of victimhood are dangerously pleasurable.

Thats why I try to empower, women need to address the issues that will help them, not what will keep them in a system that exploits them!

“When you hold resentment toward another, you are bound to that person or condition by an emotional link that is stronger than steel."

Speak

So now we are talking specifically children, and not women?

No.

Quite easily Pizan, because it is.

It's really not that simple though, is it? If people feel humiliated and victimised, it's not always possible to rationalise your way out of it. You could say that about a lot of things, it's not massively helpful.

Erm..no Pizan - I referenced having my bum pinched years and years ago. As a young, and v pretty, waiter on tables. No cat calling involved.
Fixing the problem? I do quite a bit , effectively, professionally, social in RL as , what I think, as a role model quite expansively. I oversee an open-ended group for young male offenders, often with messed up ideas of sex and DV.

But mostly, tbh is my experience as a father to a daughter - who remains fairly healthy in her attitudes and self valuing as a young woman.

Not that I am accountable to you, but there we go.

OP I bloody hated being catcalled and routinely harassed, too. I say 'hated' because it hardly ever happens now that I am an old crone middle aged. It feels amazing to have that freedom and to be released from male scrutiny. I love my middle-aged invisibility cloak and feel so much less vulnerable these days.

It was a shocker to realise that the way I feel now is how most men feel their entire lives.

venusinscorpio

So it isn't possible to rationalise your way out of victimhood? Psychiatry would disagree, mainly because they wouldn't exist if they did.

It's not about switching a switch, and poof, alls ok. But it is about turning a corner, and deciding you don't want to be a victim anymore. Once this is done the long hard slog to mental health can begin, it can't begin if people keep reiterating how much of a victim someone is.

I'll use another example, nyctophobia isn't rational, it's based on fear and infantilisation, and can be overcome. Being affraid of all men, or generically men, is very similar to fear of the dark. Neither can be condemned, both can be overcome.

I've also worked with sexually aggressive teen males, I would love to chat about that at some point with you, especially the morther nurture paradigm in sexually aggressive young men (although this wouldn't be the place).

Thats why I try to empower, women need to address the issues that will help them, not what will keep them in a system that exploits them!

How? Genuinely interested.

Which model of psychiatric care are you referencing there?