Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

I used to work in a Victorian building. There was one loo inside and one outside, the outside one had been designated the male one I assume on some chivalrous basis as obviously it doesn't matter if men get wet crossing a yard but as I woman I was too fragile for that. Anyway I was the only woman who was permanently based in the building but other woman visited from time to time. One horrible winter I said to the guys I worked with that I wasn't bothered if they used "my" loo. I knew they did if they worked different shifts to me.

It didn't cause any problems, I have a husband and 3 sons and we all managed to share toilet facilities. Its not like men's loos where I can see an issue as there isn't any privacy at the urinal.

I'm just wondering about something. If we can pick a gender and I say I am gender fluid, can I be prevented from standing anywhere in a shop and start stripping off? If you try to stop me does that make you a bigot? After all you don't know which gender I am at any time.

Good point poverty. I think we should troll Facebook with pictures of women's breasts and indignantly state they belong to transmen, and also pics of male nipples which belong to transwomen which won't get deleted which will be hugely offensive and will demonstrate that FB don't consider Transwomen to be real women which is literally murder.

So weird deliberately choosing women's toilets when they don't have to. So weird. Proof they haven't been socialised as a female, that's for sure.

It didn't cause any problems, I have a husband and 3 sons and we all managed to share toilet facilities. Its not like men's loos where I can see an issue as there isn't any privacy at the urinal.

The loo debate seems a much hotter topic in the US where their stalls aren't very private at all. You can fairly easily stand outside and see the person in the stall. The stall walls are also have huge gaps at the botuom and aren't very tall, wouldn't be surprised if a tall man could look over the top.

Granny can you not see the difference between agreeing that and consenting it and having it forced upon you?

If one of your coworkers was a stalker (I have twice been stalked by coworkers) and HR imposed a toilet sharing arrangement on you would that be just fine and dandy?

Women consent to share private spaces with penises all the time. Women consent to have penises inside them even! It really doesn't logically follow that consent is assumed or the issue can be forced.

Women consent to share private spaces with penises all the time. Women consent to have penises inside them even! It really doesn't logically follow that consent is assumed or the issue can be forced.

This, this, this. Consenting to one penis does not mean consenting to all penises, or even to that one penis on other occasions.

Natweb if you come back to the thread, please would you share your thoughts on a couple of things?

What is your opinion on the phenomenon of autogynephilia?

Do you think that the increasingly high profile of trans ideology influences young people and encourages them to believe that they can actually change sex through the use of drugs and body mutilation? Do you think this encouragement should be examined and have critical thinking applied to it?

What are your thoughts on detransitioning?

Do you think it is acceptable for women to be coerced into saying they believe transwomen to be female just like them? This is called gaslighting. (Example the OP is being forced by her employer to pretend to believe an untruth - that her male college is actually female).

Thank you and thank you to anyone else who is against the gender critical position who is good enough to answer.

The answer is that society needs to grow the fuck up about gender and sexual identity.

I actually agree with this, but in the sense that rather than seeking to redefine what woman is, we should have a really thorough-going look at gender stereotyping and get to the point where its is OK for men to be "female presenting" as men. I woud imagine that a Victorian woman transported to modern day would be astonished to see women in trousers, suits, 'masculine' specialist work attire & occupying roles and professions previously seen as the sole preserve of men (Theresa May and Angela Merkel as heads of state for example). The idea that feminists should get behind the trans agenda when it undoes over a century of hard won progress and role-expansion for women by reinstating and entrenching gendered expectations and limitations, resricting women's access to safe spaces that facilitate their participation in wider society, is hugely troubling.

Batteries, well I suppose you could say I forced it on the other women who used the building occasionally. When some of them objected the final decision was left to me as I was the one who was permanently based in the building. The men using the loo didn't cause me any issues but the women who got quite nasty about it did cause me problems.

I have never been stalked by a co-worker but surely that would need to be addressed in general not just about a loo.

The situation in the US does sound different, I have never been so I don't know what their facilities are like. I am obviously going on the basis of the cubicles being private. To be honest with you I would want them to be private even if men/transwomen or whoever were excluded.

It is very rape culturey to tell women that because they were ok with an individual penis last Thursday that means they must be ok with all penises all the time.

It's just the same old patriarchal women hating crap dressed up as liberal progressivness.

grannytomine where do you draw the line? So it's ok to use women's toilets what about changing rooms? what about at my local gym that has a communal changing room with no cubicles at all for women? If you have to allow self determining transwomen into all those spaces how do you prevent the man who thinks he'll declare he's a woman just so he can go in and have a perv or worse assault someone?

The idea that feminists should get behind the trans agenda when it undoes over a century of hard won progress and role-expansion for women by reinstating and entrenching gendered expectations and limitations, resricting women's access to safe spaces that facilitate their participation in wider society, is hugely troubling is the point. Which you have missed granny

I still can't get my head around why someone trans (especially pre-op) would insist on using female facilities when unisex are available.

I can. It is all about power, about dominating women and invading our spaces.

And about autogynephilia.

No, those dudes have not an ounce of female socialisation. If they had, they wouldn't behave this way.

hollow laugh well of course a stalker co worker needs to be more broadly addressed than sharing loos. But the intervening period between 'well, this guy is creepy' and having the evidence to make a case of it (with an excellent and very supportive HR, can't imagine how horrendous it might be with a poor HR department) is a looooong time. And the days crawl by when you know you're going to be followed to the stationary cupboard, the canteen, followed home.

If there was an opportunity for guys like that to follow you to the loos they sure would. And apparently there would be no recourse to stop them.

I do think it's awful that when other women complained the toilet sharing wasn't stopped.

granny so despite other women being uncomfortable with it, you decided to impose it on them?

Solidarity, sister.

There is a substantial difference between a single toilet and a toilet facility with a number of cubicles and separate multi sink area. Sink area is used for all sorts of reasons apart from washing hands. Things that don't require a cubicle like Muslim women checking their head cover. Sorting personal appearance, face hair, are my buttons gaping since I got dressed 3 hours ago, is my skirt sitting properly etc etc. None of these I would do in front of men in case they mistook my adjustments to check that I am properly dressed/covered as provocative behaviour. I also need a mirror to check all these things.

Just catching up with the thread, thanks to everyone who has posted. I think this is the greatest threat to women that we've seen for a long time, and I'm not being hysterical. If we lose the right to define ourselves then we lose the right to ever improve our experience as women. We cant complain about the pay gap as transwomen will be in positions of power, we will win tons of medals as transwomen will clean up at the olympics. There will be a surge in female violence as transwomen will strangely start committing crimes at the same rate as men, most odd.

There are feminists fighting this and trying to get people to listen, this makes interesting reading.

Great link. Wish I'd known that was on.

No, those dudes have not an ounce of female socialisation. If they had, they wouldn't behave this way.

^ This.

That is an excellent link Lumpy thank you for sharing.

Exactly Harlot that was my original point - so we have to adapt our behaviour accordingly because a male may come in at any moment. And no one even told us it was happening.

I'm still catching up but so many great posts from erudite and articulate women, such a contrast from the abusive stance of the trans allies and handmaidens.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170124/

Highly recommended reading. An article on Bailey's book, how it was received, the invisiblizing of autogynephilia and examination of the "feminine essence" narrative (AKA trapped in the wrong body).

I hope posters with strong beliefs that transwomen are women because they say so take a look. It's a long but easy and compelling read.

Lumpy

That link is excellent but also fucking so depressing. I am at a loss with all this. I'm so angry and need to do something. Women need to understand what is happening, and what is coming unless we do something about it.

Thanks beach I've down loaded and will read bit by bit. But the first two pages seems eerily similar to the tactics used nowadays - as in, smear and silence. Thanks for the link.

I think there is a real issue regarding transgender women in sport, and also in places like refuges and prisons where women are vulnerable.

In this particular case however, my main sympathies are with the transwoman (or transitioning male if you prefer) who wants to use the female toilets at work. It can't have been an easy decision for him/her. I don't think it is actually that threatening in reality for work toilets to even be gender neutral. I had gender neutral toilets in my previous job, and, whilst it was sometimes a little odd to go into a cubicle just vacated by a male, it never felt remotely dangerous. It might be different in the case of public toilets, but even then I probably fall on the side of saying gender neutral is ok (and means more cubicles for the women!).

I get the thin end of the wedge argument, but I don't like using one individual's personal situation to make a point.