Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

[Amalfimamma]

I'm starting to come across homophobia in trans writing now as well.

Many MTF are extremely homophobic. They also hate women, anyone who has a critical viewpoint, anyone with a brain and anyone who dares ask questions. Ah they also hate anyone who knows basic biology and uses scientific fact to debunk their lies.

They are a whole other level of cuntyness when they want to be. (IMHO before the hetrophobes start whinging)

[ArcheryAnnie]

The thing about pansexual women, Lozzachops, is that they are women - which statistically at least makes them a great deal less of a risk to other women than men and transwomen statistically are.

[DoinItFine]

You really need to stop making stuff up, nat.

Your virtue signalling is wasted here.

Nobody said all transgender people were just doing it to be cool. They pointed out that it had become fashionable for teenagers to have gender identity issues.

Also, nobody said "fuck 'em". They just said that campaigns for transgender rights were not of central importance to feminism.

There again, if you're going to trot out the anti-feminist "people are right to hate feminists because you are terrible women" thing, you are pretty much on the side of patriarchy in more ways than telling us that we are not allowed any female only spaces at all.

[natwebb79]

"Many MTF are extremely homophobic"

So are many non trans people.

"They also hate women, anyone who has a critical viewpoint, anyone with a brain and anyone who dares ask questions."

I'm not surprised they get narky when faced with the kind of ignorant shot that's been spouted on here!

[CharlieSierra]

Just to be clear, were the unisex loos actually loos for disabled people? I get the impression that is the case and I don't think it is appropriate for able bodied people to be using them. They are there for a reason

They are accessible toilets. The provision is more than adequate. Anyone can use them. I will be doing so from now on.

[LozzaChops]

No, ArcheryAnnie I was talking specifically about Marsha P Johnson and Sylvia Rivera, Tammy Novak. Diane Kearney. Allyson Allante. etc. My answer was in response to a question as to why T belongs with LGB.

And I'm aware of the "long journey" of gay liberation, thanks.

[Amalfimamma]

the kind of ignorant shot that's been spouted on here!

Don't be too hard on yourself Nat. Not everyone can know everything no matter how hard they try to live a lie and see no farther than the end of their own nose. You'll learn sooner or later

[WankingMonkey]

I feel I need to be clear on my position here..as I can see one part of my view being blown up and everything else written off as 'transphobic'

I have sympathy for those who feel they are trapped in the wrong body and I feel people should empathise and be understanding. It must be horrific to feel that way. If surgery and hormones makes those people feel better about themselves, thats fine and I am glad they are more comfortable in their own skin due to this. Personally I see a transwoman who has had all surgery and hormone treatment and such as a woman , but again I see why others do not. My issue with bathrooms and such is nothing to do with transwomen who have transitioned. I just do not believe that someone who does nothing but self-identify should be given access to women only spaces. I believe this will be abused by perverts. This is not me saying transpeople are perverts...but simply allowing anyone who says they 'are' a woman to 'be' a woman will open up the doors for loads of abuse.

I do not understand the view that people should just get over it and allow this to happen. I could understand it more if the people touting this view would say 'there is no need for sex segregated areas', although I disagree with that, it would make more sense. What does not make sense to me is saying we DO need sex segregated areas, but we should allow men into womens and vice versa.

Things have got along fine as they were. I know only 2 MtF transexuals and none viceversa..but the 2 I do know do not wish to make others uncomfortable, they just wish to get on with their lives quietly and fit in. I believe this is the view of the huge majority of 'genuine' transexuals. However there is a new kind of 'trans' which is those who do not do ANYTHING to fit in and simply say they have a pink brain. This is bollocks and should not be pandered to. It is harmful to women and trans women alike. I do not understand why some think we should embrace it. It is a huge step backwards dressed up as progression.

I am also terrified of the implications of 'transing' children and think it should not be allowed. Make lifechanging decisions like that when you are old enough to do so. Fine. Hope it makes you happier...but kids should not be able to make decisions like this, and their parents should not be able to make the decision for them either. When I read about transpeoples experiences, it always seems to come down to gender stereotypical bollocks that makes them feel the way they do. Things like they 'knew' they were female because they liked wearing dresses and playing with dolls. A huge number of transpeople who have transitioned regret the decision when they realise they still do not feel 'b etter' and then go back also. As such, this is my reason for not thinking surgery is necessarily the answer.

I went a bit too far into that and tis likely to be just a huge wall of text, but in short. A transwoman who has fully transitioned IMO should be treat as a woman in terms of women only spaces and such (but I understand those who disagree) but I will NEVER accept that a guy who simply says he feels like a woman, is a woman, and do not think people like that should be classed as the same as those who genuinely do suffer confusion and trauma about being 'trapped in the wrong body' and make actions to change that. My issue is entirely with 'self-identification', NOT trans people.

[natwebb79]

Oh do puss off with the 'women hating pro patriarchy' shite the second somebody disagrees with your rantings. Posters further down the thread did pretty much say 'I don't give a shit how they feel, I only care about myself'. This thread has included trans people being called 'men with delusions' on multiple occasions. It's vile and ignorant. By all means fight the good fight for what you believe in but the second you show bigotry towards an entire group of people, all of whom have very individual circumstances and experiences, you become fucking hypocrites.

[grannytomine]

They are accessible toilets. The provision is more than adequate. Anyone can use them. I will be doing so from now on

So they are for the disabled then.

[natwebb79]

"You'll learn sooner or later"

Blimey some people have real superiority complexes here don't they. Did you mean to be so patronising?

[WankingMonkey]

So because a few kids at a school have dabbled with the idea for a bit of attention you're willing to say that all trans people are just doing it to look cool?

I didn't say this at all...

[CharlieSierra]

nat you accuse people of ignorance but you haven't made a single cogent argument or answered any simple questions put to you. You are the one who is resorting to insults and ranting.

[MatildaOfTuscany]

Pretty much my position too wanking - though I'd go a bit further and say that the move towards reifying gender stereotypes is deeply regressive.

[DoinItFine]

I have just come onto the thread, although I have read all of it, have not ranted, although you have, at quite some length.

Only anti-feminists trot out the "no wonder people hate feminists" line.

You have at least twice on thus thread alone justified suspicion orvand hatred for feminists.

That says a great deal about you.

As does your incoherent fury to find your conforting idea that you are a non-bigot and have all the correct ideas come up against feminists who are arguing rings around you.

[ArcheryAnnie]

Why does it not surprise me, Lozza, that you are not here to talk about the Black lesbian who was at the forefront of Stonewall?

And you do know that Marsha P Johnson actively identified as a man, right? (Although I think all of them at the time of Stonewall used the descriptor "transvestite", which is very, very different from the current "trans". Just because gay men in that era used the pronouns "she/her" does not in any way mean that they would have claimed to be women the way some current transwomen do. Some might have later, but that is not the same thing.)

[CharlieSierra]

So they are for the disabled then

No. They are accessible. And designated unisex. And plentiful. Is that clear?

[Amalfimamma]

natwebb79

Blimey some people have real superiority complexes here don't they. Did you mean to be so patronising?

You see I normally answer according to others behaviour so if I seemed patronising then you should take a look at your own comments.

[natwebb79]

I've made plenty Charlie. People on here are so absorbed in the hysteria that trans women are men with evil penises that are out to get them that they wouldn't entertain anything else. If your life is so inconvenienced by this individual sharing a public toilet in your work place that you probably use for 5 minutes twice a day then it's you who needs to make other arrangements. You could try saying hello and getting ro know them a bit. You never know they might not be a man with delusions who's secretly filming you putting your lipstick on.

[natwebb79]

Anybody who knows me would pee their pants with laughter at the idea of me being anti feminist. It must be exhausting being quite so highly strung.

[CharlieSierra]

Hysteria now? How predictable.

[LozzaChops]

ArcheryAnnie

I don't know, why does it not surprise you?

We can talk about lesbians all you like, I love lesbians. As I said before - my reference to the trans (or gender non-conforming if you want to take into account the norms of the era) it was a response to Lorelei about why trans people have a place in the LGBT community. I was giving my view as a lesbian who welcomes the presence of trans people in my lesbiany space.

Or you could just indirectly accuse me of being a lesbophobe. Whatever.

[natwebb79]

"So because a few kids at a school have dabbled with the idea for a bit of attention you're willing to say that all trans people are just doing it to look cool?"

"I didn't say that at all'.

So what was the point you were trying ro make? This post isn't about teenagers trying to be cool.

[grannytomine]

Aren't all toilets accessible? How do people use the toilets that aren't accessible? Accessible toilets are specially designed so that people with mobility or other issues can access them when other toilets might not be accessible to them. Abusing facilities provided for people who need them is pretty low.

Is that clear?

[BaronessEllaSaturday]

People on here are so absorbed in the hysteria that trans women are men with evil penises that are out to get them that they wouldn't entertain anything else I don't think for a minute that MTT are men with evil penises out to get us but I do think that self identification allows men who are evil access to us when we are at our most vulnerable.