Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

It can't have been an easy decision for him/her.

Obviously not, since the obvious, sensible and considerate thing to do would have been to USE THE AVAILABLE UNISEX TOILETS!

Unisex toilets! They exist in Op's workplace! There was no damn reason whatsoever to invade female space! None at all!

Please, do read at least the first post of this thread if you are going to comment!
Or did you, and still think he is right to use the women's toilets instead of the unisex ones?

And which showers do you think he should use? Do you think he will readily use the men's showers, or not shower at all, when he feels so damn entitled to women's spaces?

There are unisex toilets. Why can't the transgender person use them? I don't think they had such a tough decision when it came to which toilet they want to use. A penis does not belong in female toilets.

But why does the transgender person want to use female toilets when gender neutral toilets are available? You'd think if they find this process so difficult, so upsetting that they would want to draw no attention to themselves. But that's not enough, they need to gain access to the women only facility. Whether that is to validate their own feelings or to exert power over women, the bottom line is that in these situations it appears that their feelings come first. And women are meant to shut up and accept it.

These trans people who are doing this must actively hate and despise women.

But you knew they were gender neutral toilets stripey. Did the cubicle sides and doors go all the way to the floor and ceiling? Was there an open basin area or were the cubicles self contained? Was it a room with multiple cubicles inside, and a door? We have gender neutral toilets on each floor, the accessible toilets. Individual self contained toilets opening off the main corridor. I would have no issue sharing such facilities. My issue is the women's rest room which has a door, an open area with wash hand basins, mirrors, hand dryers etc. and a row of cubicles with gaps top and bottom of the sides and doors. And no warning that this facility can now be entered by males.

Self-identification is the issue here, not trans women. Personally I see a trans person who has gone through hormone treatment and surgeries and such as VERY different to a guy who just says he is a woman. The second is what bothers me. And I do not believe enough people know that these two kinds of people are classed as the same. They shouldn't be.

I have yet to hear an explanation of what 'feels like a woman' means without stereotypical nonsense being brought into it, such as likes pink dresses and giving hugs.

I genuinely believe we should not be giving surgery to people and instead focusing on counseling as I do believe it is a mental illness. Much the same as we do not treat anorexia with liposuction and agreeing with the patient that they are indeed obese. I do think in 50 years or so this will be the general view too, especially with so few trans people being 'better' after surgery (same suicide rates etc)

However for the moment, we do have people who are stuck in limbo. I personally have no issue viewing as trans woman who has gone through transitioning and no longer has a penis as a woman for all intents and purposes. I understand others may not feel the same. One thing I think we all have in common though is that we wish for all people to live a happy life free of violence and discrimination. I do not, however, think it is fair to take away one groups rights to please those of another. I would stand besides trans people fighting for their own safe spaces. I do not understand why, in the case of the OP...unisex facilities were not the chosen option.

Yes I guess if they don't have a penis. But most do.

Yes I guess if they don't have a penis. But most do.

See, those who chose to retain their penis, I don't class as transsexual tbh. As the whole issue is that they feel they should have a womans body, or are 'stuck in the wrong body'. A penis is not and never will be part of a womans body. If you want to keep your dick, you are a bloke. If you chose to get false tits, fair enough, you are a bloke with tits. If you chose to dress as a woman, you are a bloke who is a crossdresser. Etc.

I would feel enormously uncomfortable OP. Put it in writing to HR.

And before 'but intersex' is brought up, intersex is not anything to do with trans and is more complicated.

Stripey, OP said clearly there are unisex loos on every floor.

But all the current guidelines will have indicated to HR that to tell the person to use the accessible toilets is potentially discriminatory. And that if I complain I can be accused of discrimination. Hence the thread has evolved.

People used to think being gay was a mental illness and could be/should be 'fixed' by counselling......

That has fuck all to do with men invading female spaces. But nice try.

Was there not some suggestion that it's discrimination against you not to also offer you a private space away from males? This person doesn't have a GRC so isn't female in the eyes of the law yet.

People used to think being gay was a mental illness and could be/should be 'fixed' by counselling......

Indeed, and now it is 'cured' by identifying as the opposite sex. The majority of the transagenda is really homophobic. Also I do not see how being gay compares to trans at all. infact my gay friends do not agree with the T in LGBT as they reckon LGB is a totally different kettle of fish and a lot of 'trans' thinking is an effort to 'cure' being gay.

dolly thinking your healthy body is wrong can't be anything but a mental illness

Bore off dolly.

Apart from all the seething, I would actually like to know how best to handle this. We need a feminist gender critical employment lawyer.

WW I will use that argument with HR. I'll let you know if I have any luck with it. I'm not holding my breath.

I am often confused by why or how LGBT are put in the same category. I'm starting to come across homophobia in trans writing now as well.

We need a feminist gender critical employment lawyer

Yes! And I need to know more about how to become more active, we need to organise.

The saddest thing about your case op is that the solution is so easy, that person should just use the unisex loo. So not complicated.

I'm sorry to keep saying it but I just keep thinking how did we get here?

God Charlie it's like going over the top in the trenches. This takes guts. I think we need some stirring music.

If I went to the doctor and said that I identified as a double amputee and felt that my legs didn't belong to me, I would like to hope that I would be offered some sort of psychological help, not told to go away and start using a wheelchair.

I don't understand why the same logic isn't applied to someone who feels that other parts of their body are 'wrong'.