Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

Do you mean that trans women are applying gender stereotypes to themselves when they transition? Before they transition? Sorry, I'm a bit lost.

Night night

It's only repetitive because of a really strange reluctance towards clarity.

I honestly don't understand how a person who deals with the realities of being a woman can then discard those realities into some sphere of no import without even a noun to describe a person who deals with that stuff. And that's even before we begin to delve into the significant problems that arise from that biological reality.

I'd love to understand, if you are so inclined as to share your thoughts. Any of you who think we are being unkind. (I think you may be aware, now, that many of us on this thread are fighting our socialisation on that front!)

Theses threads always go round in circles. Do women need separate spaces if they do then transgender women should understand the issues that women face. If they do not need separate spaces then why do transgender women's need separate facilities from men (where all the same apparently). We either need separate facilities or we don't. Personally I envisage that unisex facilities will be the new women's, women's will be mixed and men's will be status quo until using unisex will be considered transphobic then we are back to square one.

FirstShinyRobe - directed at me? I already said, I am a woman. I use the word woman. Maybe I'm tired, but I don't understand what you're asking.

NatWebb No you did not say anything to attack me, and I hope I have not said anything to attack/upset you either. I appreciate your continuing to be on this thread even though most posters disagree with you - but I suppose we all want the best for all people

I just think this is an issue with a lot of implications, if policy is changing it is worth really examining the why's and wherefore's. (sorry, inarticulate with tiredness)

I dunno if it's directed at you - do you think someone with a cock & balls is a woman? If so, then it is.

"They think and feel like women"

It's impossible to think and feel like a woman. There's no default female way of thinking!

Lozza, yes, there appears to be some of that doing the rounds. It's inherent in the idea "I identify as a woman so I wouldn't hurt another woman even though I have a penis".

I have to go to bed, thanks all, it's been interesting.

Blue, 100 x what you said!

Oh, and just to be clear, I don't think removal of aforementioned cock & balls mean you are a woman. Yes, I'm a full on terf. Truth Elucidating Radical Feminist.

I've been out with my grandson and missed all this, will have to catch up tomorrow. Truth Elucidating Radical Feminist though

There are men posting on this thread.

WinchesterWoman - sorry, I didn't answer your Q before. I've been busy today. You asked if a rape victim should be able to reject a council let if it were a man, I presume you meant trans person with a penis?

They are victims of crime so if someone is uncomfortable with their counsellor then they should be able to get someone else who they are comfortable with, if one is available.

I don't get why this is comparable with trans people using toilets. One is a crime, the other isn't.

It's obviously a big issue in the feminist section of mumsnet. I often agree with a lot being said in that section but this one, I just think there are more important things to worry about. Is the issue a fear of being assaulted/trans person getting sexually stimulated by being in a women's loo, or the person with a vulva feeling uncomfortable?

Really... If a man or women are born in the wrong body for them and they decided they want to live how they feel what right has anyone to judge them, if they are in the start of trans they have been told by the DR's they see they have to live as a man/women for about a year before they can begin the process medically (if NHS) SHE is not a "it" SHE wants to be the women that she is but unfortunately wasn't born female and before anyone says anything I am heterosexual been ecstatically married to a man for 9years AND I worked with a women that was born a man..have some respect for a fellow human...in some cultures trans people would be murderd get over it...and tif this your only work in life then you ...my friend...have a great life...don't you now take a minute and think about it..::do not be ignorant to other humans ...coins

I meant if this is your only worry in life

Tunes, any chance you'd read the thread? You might get a grasp of people's concerns if you did.

TUNE316, do you believe in souls that are waiting around for a body to inhabit and sometimes that goes a bit wrong?

Oh, and while you're here, what's a woman?

There are some truly gosdy fuckers on this thread getting a rise out of womenz

I dislike being asked to go along with a lie. Whatever the individual reasons for someone's 'identity' to be used to enter into safe spaces for women, the bottom line is that women have heard for years how men should have access to their bodies, their spaces, their thoughts, their daily routines, and on and on. Let's be clear here: transwomen are males. Asking women to pretend otherwise is largley what is at the core of this issue. Bodily safety is also at issue, but hand in hand with women's safety is that women are being asked to give a nod to a lie. And that is what sets off most women to feel ill at ease. It doesn't matter that a transwoman is not planning to physically or sexually assault another. It is the symbolic pushing of a woman to accept a male doing what he wants. Little does it matter that he wants to be considered a woman or pronouned with 'she'. What is at stake here is the woman's right to use her mind and her senses (her only defences really) to be able to state she is not comfortable.

And here we are today with article after article about this 'woman' billionaire and this 'first woman' soldier and on and on. The reality, however, does not bear out. Women billionaires are few and far between and a male entered and remained post-transition in the armed forces. A bit of intellectual honesty is not asking for much I would think.

I find many people are hypocritical, what they say and their actions are so different. Many parents no longer allow their children to use the toilets alone but still criticise others fear as irrational. Children are wrapped so much in cotton wool and yet fear of men abusing self identification is hysteria. The need to be seen as morally superior when they are as freightened as the next person.

Bluebolt - agree. I used to wear my cloak of tolerant and open minded to the point of stupidity as a badge of moral superiority over all the ignorant, provincial little bigots. Now i've let that go a little, it's incredibly liberating to not kow tow and b a sheep!

Hours ago, someone asked for stats on how many transwomen have genital surgery. I found this study (after quite a trawl!) which found that 5% of participating transwomen had had genital surgery and a further 45% were planning it. 50% had no plans for surgery.

• People who identified as non-binary were not included in the results

• The authors note that other studies have produced higher numbers. Some of these studies were conducted in clinical settings so 'would, ipso facto, overestimate GCT [gender confirmation therapy] rates in the general community of transgender people.'

• Surgery rates for transwomen in other studies ranged from 73% (clinical setting, all participants receiving hormonal treatment) to 9% (non-clinical setting, San Francisco). The largest survey showed a surgery rate of 31% for transwomen (non-clinical, US-wide)

• The authors think there might be additional demographic reasons their results are lower. A large proportion of participants were white transwomen over the age of 50.

• The study appears in a peer reviewed journal with a respectable looking board of editors, however this is the first issue. The journal does not appear to be anti-trans or gender-critical at all.

• The article was published two months ago. I cannot find any discussion of this study anywhere online. This suggests to me that, while the results might not be totally representative, they are not considered remarkable.

For those saying isn't happening, won't ever happen - a case in Clovis California. Girls forced to change in front of a boy for PE and told if they don't like it to leave the school. No alternative offered.

Thank you transactivists. Thanks a bunch.

For anyone who is interested Reese Hartstirn is a perfect example of why we as WOMEN,not cis, not terf but WOMEN are fighting this trend.

I'm firmly in the 'this is the thin end of the wedge' camp.

Because the reality of access to toilets moving on to access to changing rooms etc is that ultimately some women and girls will be left with less freedom. Some females, either through their own choice or through family pressure (eg coercive partner or religious pressure) simply won't be able to do something simple like go to the gym or swimming pool if there is even the remotest possibility that a person with a penis might be naked beside them in the changing rooms. The fact that the person with a penis says they feel like a woman will be irrelevant. Presence of penis = some women can no longer use these facilities.

I still can't get my head around why someone trans (especially pre-op) would insist on using female facilities when unisex are available.

The motives must be suspect surely.