Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

[JedRambosteen]

I feel like wr've regressed 25 years

Well I can agree with you there, although I suspect you aren't referring to the erosion of hard won women's rights.

Yep, it feels like a massive step back for women's rights (biological born ones), though I'd say more like 100 years than 25. I mean, really, what's the point of having the vote if our elected politicians can't see why women might have concerns about the self-identification agenda, consult in such a partial way and are so swayed by a small, vocal minority to the detriment of 50% of society. I read Arai Davies' blog and I am fuming.

[DoinItFine]

Do you EVER unclench??

Ah brilliant!

You set this up pages ago when you said you only liked "cool" people.

Very good.

I'm really enjoying this now I get it.

[CharlieSierra]

You are being goady. And dismissive. If you don't agree, then put forward a rational alternative viewpoint instead of hurling insults. You are the one resorting to emotional over reaction.

[DoinItFine]

Anybody who knows me would pee their pants with laughter at the idea of me being anti feminist. It must be exhausting being quite so highly strung.

Ah right, you're doing a pisstake of a right on, virtue signalling, liberal misogynist.

Nice effort over the past day or so. Nice work.

Love the idea of stamping your feet about what a great feminist you are while insulting other women for their emotional fragility!

Nearly had us there.

[natwebb79]

Uh. By now, we all know that nat is a misogynist, right? I am not in the least surprised that he or she would use such terms.

"Yes, those choices are very revealing, but I really didn't get the impression that nat made any effort to hide his or her misogynist attitudes in the first place."

Do you EVER unclench?? Have you really convinced yoursef I'm one of them evil menz now? Are you on substances?? Seriously, nothing I've said is because you are a woman. I realise this seems to be the default conclusion on this thread but seeing as I am a woman I don't make a habit of demonising women. That would be daft.

[WankingMonkey]

Some transwomen realise they are not actually the same as real women - hey ho.

Yes, the transwomen I know acknowledge this. I assumed this view was widespread but it seems not. They treat people with respect and just want to fit in. They don't wish to make others feel uncomfortable. They are both post-op though anyway so not really the kind of people this thread is about. It was never a case of just declaring they were women and that was it.

[Beachcomber]

Natwebb, you're back!

Would you be so kind as to reply to my post upthread. I'll repost it here in case you missed it. I'm asking you out of genuine interest in your thought process.

Natwebb if you come back to the thread, please would you share your thoughts on a couple of things?

What is your opinion on the phenomenon of autogynephilia?

Do you think that the increasingly high profile of trans ideology influences young people and encourages them to believe that they can actually change sex through the use of drugs and body mutilation? Do you think this encouragement should be examined and have critical thinking applied to it?

What are your thoughts on detransitioning?

Do you think it is acceptable for women to be coerced into saying they believe transwomen to be female just like them? This is called gaslighting. (Example the OP is being forced by her employer to pretend to believe an untruth - that her male college is actually female).

Thank you and thank you to anyone else who is against the gender critical position who is good enough to answer.

[natwebb79]

"Men who insist they are women just like real women (even though they know they are not) are porobaby women hating goady fuckers."

I rest my case. Vile. Ignorant. Downright bizarre.

[natwebb79]

Oh right. So for not fully agreeing with you I'm an anti-feminist patriarchy loving goady fucker. You're really not helping the cause with that kind of over reaction. It makes a joke of feminism and that's the last thing we need. (In the real world. Not planet Mumsnet).

[Bambambini]

Posters further down the thread did pretty much say 'I don't give a shit how they feel, I only care about myself'. This thread has included trans people being called 'men with delusions' on multiple occasions. It's vile and ignorant. By all means fight the good fight for what you believe in but the second you show bigotry towards an entire group of people, all of whom have very individual circumstances and experiences, you become fucking hypocrites

Yes, men who truly believe they are women like real women are surely deluded, are you saying they are not? Men who insist they are women just like real women (even though they know they are not) are porobaby women hating goady fuckers. Some transwomen realise they are not actually the same as real women - hey ho.

Giving a shit? I wish transfolk no harm - doesn't mean i'm going to buy into their delusions and demands where i consider them irrational, delusional and harmful to women and children. It would seem that many transwomen don't give a shit about women at all or they would totally understand our concerns.

[Beebeeeight]

If I went into the toilets in work and found a man there id be using the single lockable one from then on.

[natwebb79]

Oh I can assure you that somebody earlier in thread said they didn't give a fuck how it made a TW feel. Plus the opinion on here that the only reason for a TW wanting to use a female toilet rather than a unisex one must be because they are actually a woman hating delusional man is foul. I acknowledged much earlier on that I feel.like I live on.a very different planet ro most on this thread and as a result would gracefully bail out. The result of that was 'Ooh a flouncer!' and numerous 'Nat come back and answer this", 'please come back.and answer that...'. I have made it very clear that I'm not an academic expert on the topic but have trans friends and have worked with trans young adults. I'm happy at least that I have only come across such disdain for trans people on this board. I'll leave you ladies to thrash it out.

[ArcheryAnnie]

or other issues

grannytomine, you might find it helpful to read what you yourself wrote. If someone cannot access a standard toilet for any reason, then they can use the accessible toilet. That's what the accessible toilets are for. (And I applaud Charlie's workplace if they - unlike so many other places - recognise that they have to make ample provision for accessible loos, so that all the people who need them, for whatever reason, can find one available when they need it.)

[CharlieSierra]

nat DFOD, you're a goady fucker.

[ArcheryAnnie]

Lozza I can not determine what is in your heart, only what you say - and you said you weren't here for the Black lesbian who was one of the ones at the forefront of Stonewall, and you continue to subscribe to the incorrect revisionist history that it was transwomen who led Stonewall (and therefore, you imply, we are horrible ingrates if we don't cave to every demand from current trans activists, however much it damages us and sets us back).

If you mean something different from this, I'd be interested to hear it.

[VestalVirgin]

So why did you choose to use an insult that many on here find misogynistic, and have even taken the time to explain to you why they find it misogynistic? Language choice is very revealing of people's underlying attitudes.

Uh. By now, we all know that nat is a misogynist, right? I am not in the least surprised that he or she would use such terms.

Yes, those choices are very revealing, but I really didn't get the impression that nat made any effort to hide his or her misogynist attitudes in the first place.

[natwebb79]

Matilda - because I feel that many people's comments on here have been hysterical. I would use the word hysterical equally for a male demonstrating the same behaviour. I'd say perhaps some people on here should be less sensitive but I don't want to have to bring out the smelling salts 😁

[WankingMonkey]

People on here are so absorbed in the hysteria that trans women are men with evil penises that are out to get them that they wouldn't entertain anything else

No, I don't think people think that of trans women at all. People think this of people who can now 'self-identify' and be seen the same as a trans woman though.

So what was the point you were trying ro make? This post isn't about teenagers trying to be cool.

I kinda clarified this with a post above this? Guessing you didn't bother to read it. This particular thread is about self-identification. Teenagers self-identifying as a 'fad' is entirely relevant to the thread. 'Trans people' and people who just 'think' they are the opposite sex are the same damn thing right now, and this should scare people but it seems to be perfectly fine with some? I don't understand this position as accepting people who just say they are women and make NO changes at all are the same as transpeople is so fucking damaging and it actually scares me that anyone should find this OK.

[VestalVirgin]

Also, nobody said "fuck 'em".

True. In fact, the thing MTT are angry about is rather that no one wants to fuck them.

They call it "Cotton Ceiling", as though women's bodies are objects they are entitled to. And if you think that's even remotely okay, then you are not a feminist.

[CharlieSierra]

I feel like wr've regressed 25 years

Well I can agree with you there, although I suspect you aren't referring to the erosion of hard won women's rights.

[treaclesoda]

I don't give a shit how they feel, I care only about myself

Why is it that it would be wrong and bigoted for a woman to feel this way (although actually none of the women on the thread have actually said that) but when a transwoman feels this way, and behaves accordingly, that is their right, and they are brave individuals, to be applauded for taking the difficult step of using the women's toilets (to use the example in the OP)?

[MatildaOfTuscany]

So why did you choose to use an insult that many on here find misogynistic, and have even taken the time to explain to you why they find it misogynistic? Language choice is very revealing of people's underlying attitudes.

[Amalfimamma]

LozzaChops

Would you every consider having a relationship with a MTF who has not, and has no intentions of transitioning?

[natwebb79]

I knew somebody would pounce on me for using the word 'hysteria'. I've seriously been trying to find a better fit for almost 24 hours but I'm sorry, I failed. I've never come across anything like some of the comments on this thread. I feel like wr've regressed 25 years.

[BaronessEllaSaturday]

People on here are so absorbed in the hysteria that trans women are men with evil penises that are out to get them that they wouldn't entertain anything else I don't think for a minute that MTT are men with evil penises out to get us but I do think that self identification allows men who are evil access to us when we are at our most vulnerable.