Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

I don't really mind as long as there's no piss on the floor or on the seat. Surely transwomen would sit down?

Kateinkorea For me it is not a question of owing anyone access, more that there is a facility I can choose to use or not, and that I would prefer it up to individual people to choose where they want to go. Some schools near me have built unisex toilets, scrapping the girl/ boy provision. Therefore, like at most private households, toilets are not the preserve of males or females. The only thing I feel entitled to is the provision of a working loo in the workplace.

Actually I was going to make a related post.

We have just done some 'transgender training' at work and we were told:

"If a woman is uncomfortable with a MtF using the women's toilets or changing room you are to advise the woman that under the Equality policy the transitioner has every right to be there. If the woman is uncomfortable with this you are to advise her to use the gender neutral toilets or changing room. "

I think I was the only one who found this worrying. It's basically saying born women can't have their own spaces?

If I want to undress in front of born women then presumably I wouldn't be able to do that in a gender neutral toilet, whatever that is.

As I said I am going to do a bigger post at the weekend because there was so much I can't get my head around.

Lynda, we were told we are not allowed to ask people if they have a GRC as it may cause embarrassment to them. We were told that basically anyone who wants to use the women's toilets or changing rooms can.

This was local government.

I can't believe people care about this. As of the teams woman is remotely interested in watching you change your tights ffs. If they are in the toilets it's likely because they need a piss like the rest of us

*trans

Well no, I presume if you had a FtM then they could use the men's toilets. I don't know how men feel about that.

I'm probably missing the point but it's women whom was born male makeing the long and difficult process of turning HER self into female and there's bitching about that she using the lady's loos and changeing area. it's surely not any different then public swimming and gym . Like I said I've missed the point

having to continue with the gents but potentially be in there wearing a skirt/dress - I dread to think the reaction that would get from other people using the gents at the same time.

This is an interesting statement. So in the circumstances that women react badly to a male person in their toilets and men react badly to a male person who happens to be wearing a skirt in their toilets, it's women who are being intolerant and have to STFU, and men can go right ahead with their 'reaction' without any censure whatsoever?

Don't think i'd like a male colleague to be in the next cubicle listening to me peeing, crapping, farting, wiping my arse, changing my moon cup and getting a sniff too and then we can wash hands at the sink togethe

I don't want anyone to listen, whatever they have between their legs or how they identify. It's not always avoidable (because work won't buildo my own personal toilet for use only by me) and it's never going to be comfortable.

We did have a MtF and if she used the ladies loos, I don't think it was ever at the same time and block as me (though thinking about where her desk was, we probably just never used the same block of loos anyway.)

Our work showers are individual, meaning the cubicle and changing area is in one room with a lockable door, so that gets round that.

Have you considered that SHE feels uncomfortable and unsafe using the gents loos? Could you even imagine being born a woman in a mans body, then having to explain to men that you are actually a woman and are going to physically become a woman, and THEN having to share a bathroom with those men? She is using the ladies loos because that is a safe space for her. Not to annoy you, not to upset you, not to make you feel so bloody ridiculously. Life isn't all about YOU. Change your fucking tights in a cubicle like everyone else.

Horrendous attitude to someone who is vulnerable.

Have you considered that SHE feels uncomfortable and unsafe using the gents loos? Could you even imagine being born a woman in a mans body, then having to explain to men that you are actually a woman and are going to physically become a woman, and THEN having to share a bathroom with those men? She is using the ladies loos because that is a safe space for her.

Again, the problem is men and their reactions to someone with a male body exhibiting feminine behaviour. How about someone has a go at then about that? But no, men's revulsion and potential violence is just a natural part of life that can't possibly be addressed, at least, not when there are women to bully into submission instead.

I can't believe people care about this

And I can't understand why every woman doesn't. Why every single woman doesn't see what it stands for, and loudly and vociferously say NO.

I think you might be on a hiding to nothing complaining about it.

Sigh.

Males cannot 'become' females.

"If a woman is uncomfortable with a MtF using the women's toilets or changing room you are to advise the woman that under the Equality policy the transitioner has every right to be there. If the woman is uncomfortable with this you are to advise her to use the gender neutral toilets or changing room. "

Fucking hell. And we're not allowed to ask about GRC. So basically all those laws that Maria Miller wanted enacting - well it's just happening right now without them isn't it?Who the fucking fuck wants this? Why can't I

Why can't I be private from men for five minutes at work while I'm peeing.

Have you considered that SHE feels uncomfortable and unsafe using the gents loos?

Tbh I wouldn't give a shit as he obviously doesn't give a shit about me.

People have transitioned in our office before and have always initially used the disabled loo which is a neutral space.

However, if someone wanted to use the ladies instead I wouldn't have any issue. I honestly don't understand why you would want to make the life of a transitioning person more difficult.

I've used unisex loos in lots of places with no issue and I honestly can't understand why it's a problem for you if the person in the next cubical identifies as male, female, or something else entirely.

I'm probably missing the point but it's women whom was born male makeing the long and difficult process of turning HER self into female and there's bitching about that she using the lady's loos and changeing area. it's surely not any different then public swimming and gym . Like I said I've missed the point

What does this long and difficult process consist of? And in my gym, the women are often naked in the communal area - I'd be curious how many would feel uncomfortable with a male there as they undress, take a shower etc.

I honestly don't understand why you would want to make the life of a transitioning person more difficult.

Because it makes all women's lives infinitely more difficult not least by allowing all men including predators, harassers, jokes, nosy parkers and so on - into women's toilets, showers and ultimately all women's spaces, refuges, rape centres.

Because of precedent, because the principle is lost that women need places where men can't go.