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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
PacificDogwood · 19/08/2014 22:08

I don't understand why people seem to find it hard to speak to their children, even young children, about how their bodies work. The mechanics of sex and reproduction are easy to explain IMO (a few picture books help) - it's all the other shit that's hard to get right.
Don't do anything, YOU don't want to do (boys and girls)
If it does not feel right, it probably isn't right (boys and girls)
No means no (boys)
You don't HAVE to have sex to be popular/cool/liked (boys and girls)
Any boys pressurising you to have sex is not worthy of you (girls)
Any 'friend' who makes fun of you for not wanting/having sex, is not your friend (boys and girls)
You are great just as you are (boys and girls)

I could go on - you'll be relieve to hear I am going to bed. Somewhat depressed.

stinkingbishop · 19/08/2014 22:08

Just had an interesting chat with DP about this over a romantic dinner, as you do.

He nodded along with porn, but also said that in some cultures it's seen as 'safe sex'. He worked in Africa for a while and it was done to preserve the girl's hymen for marriage and also, in some cases, there was a mistaken belief that you couldn't get HIV that way (obviously what would happen was condoms were more likely to rip, if they were even worn, so...) Plus - this is generalising HUGELY - what with FGM and all, a girl's pleasure/pain just wasn't seen as relevant.

He wondered therefore whether that attitude might have slipped out with migration/general cultural influence.

CaptChaos · 19/08/2014 22:10

Yeah, purity pledges... setting women and girls up for a lifetime of being gatekeepers to sex. Seen any boys at those pledge parties? Nope, me either, but then boys are supposed to sow their wild oats, just not with 'good' girls, or at least good girls who won't let them fuck them up the arse.

The havoc caused by Christians of all stripes in Africa is a cause for huge sadness Pacific The Catholic church and it's insistence that condoms are works of the devil in countries where the cancer that most men die of is Kaposi's Sarcoma and children are left orphaned every day because their mother's have died of AIDS. Yeah.... getting off my soapbox now, because I'm derailing.

HumblePieMonster · 19/08/2014 22:14

Men regularly asking or pestering for it, expecting it, making out you were frigid if you didn't want it
that's exactly how they were about vaginal entry in the mid 70s. if you wanted to wait, you were 'frigid'. so there's been a cultural shift. interesting.

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 22:18

Oh god yes, how weird. Probably 95% flaccid or semi. Mostly semi. I didn't think anything of it because at the time I hadn't seen a real one so I didn't really know the difference.

I heard about the "anal doesn't break purity" thing but always thought it was an urban myth TBH.

CaptChaos · 19/08/2014 22:19

No, it's a really old thing. A lot of very religious people who have to show blood on the sheets have been going in for it for a good while.

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 22:19

I can see it happening in Africa :( The situation for women there is generally beyond dire, though.

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 22:21

I've been watching Parenthood (US drama/sitcom thing although not really a comedy) and two characters were literally in tears at the realisation that their 16yo daughter was having sex Confused This is just alien to me and seems so wrong. They liked her boyfriend and they had talked to her about safe sex. Maybe I'll have a different perspective when mine are older but it just seems bizarre.

goodasitgets · 19/08/2014 22:22

Porn is a taboo subject on this board, I know. But have watched a number of interviews with a particular porn star, and she is so open and honest. I love this that she said about anal sex

Dani: "I have no plans for anal. I don’t do anal in my private life and I don’t enjoy it one bit. I don’t plan on selling out my asshole for porn so unless I wake up one day and magically like it in the butt, anal is a no for me"

angeltulips · 19/08/2014 22:25

7zark7 - shades of R v brown no? Violent anal sex resulting in rectal damage on an underage girl might be something deemed to be so far across the line as worth prosecuting?

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 22:29

Frigid is such a horrible damaging word isn't it?

gussiegrips · 19/08/2014 22:30

It's difficult for parents to talk to their kids about sex because often the parents don't have a great education about sex themselves.

And, also, obviously, often parents are very uncomfortable about the prospect of their children becoming sexually active. We don't get much information about what help and support they need, there's a need for an Annabel Karmel for wanking as well as weaning.

Sex ed isn't something that finishes when you are 17, by the way. We need it to continue - we need new information when pregnancy/infertility/post-natal/menopause/illness/older age start to make their way into our lives.

So, teachers - what scope is there for you to bring consent/discussions about porn/sexual practices other than penis-in-vagina? Is sex ed a specialism, or a part of standard teacher training? (excuse my ignorance about education. I know a lot about bumholes instead)

Greythorne · 19/08/2014 22:30

As well as the emphasis on anal sex, I feel sad that for young people everything seems to have to happen at once.

When I was a teen, it was holding hands at the cinema, following by snogging, following by "heavy petting" then PIV and oral sex later. Anal did not figure in my teen years at all and not even anecdotally.

Now it seems young girls self impose hairless genitals. Blowjobs are seen as the most minor sexual contact, with PIV also very basic and anal nothing extraordinary.

Shocking and saddening. I also feel old.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 22:30

Maybe. If the girl isn't under 16 and there is no accompanying violence (ie he hasn't beaten her up) and she has agreed to it however unenthusiastically then I'm not sure at all.

It's hard enough to get rape prosecuted. Damage due to a consensual sex act between over 16s - I just can't see that going anywhere.

I don't think a hospital would call the police for an injury of this type unless as you say the patient was underage and / or there were concerns that the activity had not been consensual.

I could be wrong, though, this is just what I'm thinking based on how other stuff gets treated.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 22:31

sorry that was to angel, thread moved on!

Greythorne · 19/08/2014 22:32

Oh, I like like to think I am a bit of a gadget geek, but I have never, ever in all my years if iwning Palm Pilots, iPhones, iPads, laptops etc. Received a single picture of a penis, flaccid or otherwise.

ThisIsBULLSHIT · 19/08/2014 22:34

I have spoken too my 11 yr old dd about porn and expectations of boys because of this. I have told her than any experiences she has sexually have to be because she enjoys them.

She listened carefully so I am hoping I have got this right.

11 sounds so young but it didn't feel too young to discuss it. We are pretty open conversation wise.

angeltulips · 19/08/2014 22:35

Hmmm I wonder - you're probably right

Because it strikes me that where this is different from other "sex trends" is its capacity to do damage

All the stuff about waiting, self respect, enjoyment etc - all that was there when we were young. And I knew loads of girls who did things they weren't comfortable with in the name of being cool thanks to my overachieving girls boarding school, that and eating disorders were de rigeur

But the physical consequences are so different. I can't get my head around it.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 22:37

No I've never been sent a cock pic either.

And as they are apparently all flaccid, I don't feel like I've missed out, quite frankly (only half joking. because flaccid. why? what on earth is the point? still totally baffled).

I assumed the point of the cock pics was to say look at my magnificant mighty erection, bet you'd like a bit of that. A pic like that may be welcome or unwelcome, depending on circs, but at least the thinking behind it is understandable. Why the fuck would a man send a woman a picture of his flaccid dick?

Sorry I know I seem to be unhealthily focussing on this but simply do not understand.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 22:40

agreed angel that however much we talk to teens, peer pressure and the natural teen drive to try new stuff and do everything and now is going to be difficult to overcome.

Also I can tell DDs to only do what they want etc til the cows come home but if they like someone / think everyone is doing it / have quite compliant personalities it won't help much as frankly it often didn't in our day.

This is why they need to tell them in school and start it young and repeat it often, its the only way t try to mitigate it.

AlpacaYourThings · 19/08/2014 22:46

It seems to me that the flaccid cock shots are more 'man in a mac flashing in the park' Seven

Corygal · 19/08/2014 22:47

This report is just revolting. The base issue is consent, isn't it - and getting over the idea that withholding consent is the same as frigidity. So women get hit by the double standard again, but from a different angle.

I could shoot those third-wavers who think that saying they're up for anything somehow means they're representing all other women. Ewww, but don't you feel sheer disgust for the male teens out there - shuddering physical revulsion. Who could want one long term?

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 22:47

The thing is, I don't think any of us understood either. We used to think it was shocking, then hilarious, then just boring and annoying.

They'd ask you for a pic of your tits or your face and they'd send one of their cock flopping around, I don't know why? I suppose because they thought it equivalent and they didn't want to be asking for photos without offering something in return. It's the only real thing they have which is a mystery, TBH, they wanted boob shots, fanjo shots, they sort of had to offer something (trying to get into the mind of a clueless perv here) and a nice chest or arm is probably wishful thinking a bit weird. And 99% of the time we were all like "No. Creep." so you'd think that by now, 10 years later, the internet pervs would have realised that a flaccid cock photo is not a suitable enticement for a boob photo in return.

I used to have webcam sex don't judge me, it just seemed like the thing to do at the time with boyfriends I was going out with in real life and I'd have to ask them multiple times "Please point the camera at your face, your reaction is sexy to me" whereas they were really not keen on face shots my end and wanted to see the "action" Hmm I gave up after a couple of times because it was just boring, really. What had seemed like an exciting and fun idea just became an exercise for them in how to get as many naughty body parts on camera as possible.

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 22:50

They can be like that Alpaca, but no in my experience most of the ones I received, the guys generally seemed to think we wanted it. And of course I was taught that men are so very very fragile and sensitive about their appendages so I could never say "Ew, why the fuck would you send me that?" and/or "I'm not interested in looking at your penis" in case it gave them a complex so usually we would roll our eyes at the mystery of boys and then continue as usual.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 22:52

I guess maybe these blokes are just really fucking stupid if they can't work out that in a sexual context an erect penis is the preferred state Hmm