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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
SunshineOutdoors · 19/08/2014 20:00

The person I lost my virginity to had read a book about being good at sex which he showed me and it talked about massaging for a long time, working way up slowly, giving female gentle oral sex etc. basically nothing like what you see in porn. I'd love to remember what that book was to show my ds when he's older. All little details like kissing/stroking neck, arms etc. It's a shame that teenagers have a lot less access to information about how to have good sex and loads of information about how to have potentially painful and distressing sex Sad

SunshineOutdoors · 19/08/2014 20:04

That was a bad choice of word in my last sentence. It's not a 'shame', it's fucking appalling.

HolidayPackingIsHardWork · 19/08/2014 20:04

Yuck. I was a teenager in the 90s. No one would ever have considered this, at all. I think the boys would have been grossed out at the thought.

It was truly a more innocent time I suppose. Boys were obsessed with boobs, not the back passage.

No one waxed off all their pubic hair either. That would have been considered odd. I think these things have come from internet porn. I wonder how viewing this stuff at a young age shapes a teenager's mind for life.

How sad for young people. Whenever a responsible adult suggests an opt-in for porn on the internet; they get shouted down as a prude. We seem to both overprotect and under protect children.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 20:09

No idea queen.

What I would say is that having seen some gay porn, and some straight porn, bogstandard stuff, it's very different. I haven't seen much at all - but what I have seen with men together was much more focussed on mutual enjoyment and bizarrely lots of kissing and smiling and stuff. Affection. Which is a far cry from het porn where you get a man or men fucking a frankly miserable looking woman as hard as he possibly can. The whole atmosphere of the thing is completely different.

Having said that, I haven't seen vast amounts of either and of course there is all sorts out there but this was just what I noticed in what I have seen.

It may well be that the prevalence of gay porn has had a similar effect on expectations in that community but I have no idea. I expect there have been similar studies.

The other interesting thing is tewi talks about fanfic which is predominantly written by and read by women and although there is allsorts on there, where there is a consensual sexual encounter the norm is mutually enjoyable sex. And of course where it isn't mutually enjoyable sex that is being written about, it's not real people doing it. Yet in porn made by men for (straight) men, the focus is completely different. Mutual enjoyment and pleasure are not the point of it at all.

Why the big difference?

And still, what can be done?

grimbletart · 19/08/2014 20:11

I am so glad I am an old biddy. I never thought I'd say it but our more repressed youth was actually healthier for girls and women than what is happening now. Porn has so much shit to answer for.

As for being pressed for anal sex. Let's hear it for the girls who have the guts to say OK - after I have shoved a broom handle up your arse first. See how you enjoy that.

I am so angry about this. Any youth who had tried that with me would have found his backside on the kerb before he took breath. Angry

I'm not victim blaming but I do also wonder where we have gone wrong with our daughters in instilling in them that boys are fine but they simply are not necessary. There wasn't one of my friends when I was a teen who had not at some point told push boys to sod off.

Rant over.

HolidayPackingIsHardWork · 19/08/2014 20:16

Agree completely grimbletart. I wonder if some of the "sex positive feminism" is getting twisted and girls are left feeling like they have no way to say no. Any "no" is seen as repressed, uncool, prudish, etc because after all, everything goes and no one should judge what other people enjoy.

Some how in that message the fact that you don't always have to say yes and you don't have to enjoy everything is getting lost.

GurlwiththeCurl · 19/08/2014 20:27

This thread is depressing me too. I am old and was a teen in the 70s. Boys then seemed to be relatively innocent compared with these days. We got our information about sex from books and magazines. It was all so much tamer.

I have DSs in their early twenties and certainly talked to them both about issues of consent, sex being something you did with a partner rather than to a partner. They are pretty open with me and we still discuss things like this now, particularly when there has been a case on the news such as Ched Evans for example.

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 20:30

grimble I think there were a few on this thread who hit a pretty good bit where having lots of partners was no problem, but condom use was the norm , and the more extreme sexual practices weren't considered standard. I am feeling very lucky right now as well.

And it is just messed up. If people want to have a go at / do more "advanced" sexual stuff, for want of a better term, then generally it's a plan to start with the basics and build up over a period of time surely. Getting to know what you like, having different partners and those experiences, getting to know your body and so on.

The expectation these days seems to be to do everything there is and right now. Whereas (example) I know that a couple of my friends regularly have anal sex with their partners because they like it, and they found that over the years of being sexually active. The pressure to do it all and right now is terrible.

Rafflesway · 19/08/2014 20:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Vacillating · 19/08/2014 20:47

My younger single male friend finds the whole situation for him and his male peers depressing. These are educated professionals in well paid work who travel widely and are good friends. They do endless porn and get sex via tinder he doesn't so either thinking it damages him and his perception of sex and he wants love, kids what he thinks of as a normal relationship that unfolds into sex. He thinks that they are all fed up of it and wish they had never got to the point they are in now where normal sex is hard to sustain.

Vacillating · 19/08/2014 20:48

Normal well you know vaginal with the same person...

expatinscotland · 19/08/2014 20:49

What the hell is 'tinder'?

SevenZarkSeven · 19/08/2014 20:50

It's an app where you can see who is nearby and up for it as well and meet for a fuck I think.

We used to call it "going to the pub" Grin

TeWiSavesTheDay · 19/08/2014 20:54

Tinder is an app, you see pictures of people in the local area, swipe right if you like them, left to reject, if you both swipe right you can talk to each other (and arrange a fuck, though obviously they pretend it's not just for that) one of the founders is being investigated for sexual harassment...

JustTheRightBullets · 19/08/2014 20:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TeWiSavesTheDay · 19/08/2014 20:59

Looking back, I do think there is a lot of pressure to be seen as cool and liberal and up for anything for girls, and for boys to want to do everything even if their partner doesn't seem interested.

I feel like sexual liberation got hijacked. And I do think it's really important that girls are taught about enjoying sex and that they can say no, because that really does seem to have been lost somewhere along the way.

badasahatter · 19/08/2014 21:00

My daughter is 13 and has very little interest in boys right now. She won't admit that she fancies boys, though I know she does, and until she does, she won't have 'the chat', whatever that may constitute.

So far, I've told her that she should never be involved with anyone, male or female, that doesn't put her first and consider her needs. She is a lovely girl and needs to respect herself and her own needs and wants. She should never feel forced or coerced into doing anything.

The next step will be me telling her that boys will ask her to do stuff, but she can always say no, unless she wants to say yes. And she should weigh up the risks of anything she says yes to as well.

So far, she's a kid who doesn't feel the need to say yes to her friends just because they're her friends. She's shunned Facebook, Instagram and all forms of social media so far. She's proving herself to be quite strong in most aspects of peer pressure. I know that may not last, but for now, I'm thankful for that.

I've talked about porn to her and said how silly it all is at the moment and that it should never be used as a norm. Hopefully, she'll take that on board, even though I haven't talked about much in detail.

I hope, that by laying the foundations with her, that she'll know what to do when the time comes. I also hope that there will be boys out there, raised by good women, like you mums on here, who will have similar standards instilled in their upbringing.

PacificDogwood · 19/08/2014 21:08

I wonder how much sexual liberation and then the sudden panic surrounding HIV in the mid 80s has warped this carefree sense of fun, recreational, safe sex?
There is also this weird idea that anal sex is preferable because it cannot lead to pregnancy Hmm.

I feel v strongly that girls AND boys need to be taught that early penetrative sex is not a requirement to be cool or with it and that saying 'no' is absolutely fine. As is saying 'yes' in a caring and yes, horny, context. But again to really want sex, you'd need to find it pleasurable, wouldn't you? Sad

We have a strict FB/Instagram ban here - I am so glad I am still able to say 'not allowed until you're 13'. I know that is not the solution, but hey ho, I take my reprieve where I can get it.

poorbuthappy · 19/08/2014 21:09

I worry for my 3 girls.
Well in a way I don't because they have me for a mum and I will deal with all the horrible stuff because I have to prepare them off the world. But Christ. I ain't looking forward to it.

expatinscotland · 19/08/2014 21:16

The routine pressure to give/receive anal and other practices like ejaculating on a woman's face, shaved pubes/bald fanjo is definitely a product of the past 20 years, IME.

StandsOnGoldenSands · 19/08/2014 21:17

I would love to hear a sex positive third wave feminist discuss their position in the light of this thread.
I have just never understood how they can believe it. I'm willing to be persuaded and always have been, but me and feminist activism fell out when third wave became all 'yay sexeh'.

BertieBotts · 19/08/2014 21:17

I am trying to prepare myself for actually sitting down and having a talk with DS (and future DC) about porn. I don't think it's a case of leaving acceptable stuff around (which is also DH's idea) - I think that it's so open now they are going to come across it elsewhere anyway. I know there's still a level of embarrassment and keeping it private etc, but the thing is from just typing "porn" into google you get access to all sorts and even if you have a ban, software etc, not all parents will.

HumblePieMonster · 19/08/2014 21:23

my ex used to try to have anal sex with me in the 1970s. happily, I could remind him it was then illegal. but men wanted it. not sure how they heard of it (from each other? he never read a book so it couldn't have been that).

AlpacaYourThings · 19/08/2014 21:30

Anal sex was illegal in the 70's? I didn't know that Blush

PacificDogwood · 19/08/2014 21:30

Ach, anal sex has been around since the beginning of time, but it used to have a bit of a taboo attached to it. Now it appears to be a 'requirement' or something.

I think this hits the nail on the head, TeWi:
"Looking back, I do think there is a lot of pressure to be seen as cool and liberal and up for anything for girls, and for boys to want to do everything even if their partner doesn't seem interested."

There is pressure on girls to allow all sorts and pressure on boys to 'want' it.
It is no longer a 'niche', anal, fisting, shaved everything (girls AND boys), cum on face etc. You either like it or you're frigid.

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