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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
MostWicked · 19/08/2014 22:59

This is such a difficult subject and I do think that the focus should be on teaching consent, not preaching about what constitutes good and bad sex. Making women feel dirty for enjoying things that some other women have decided is disgusting, is not helpful.

I was a teen in the 80s. I had shaved pubic hair and tried anal sex. It was my choice, not something that I was pressured into.
Now in my 40s and happily married, I regularly enjoy anal sex and continue to shave. It is not for everyone, I wouldn't criticise anyone for not wanting to do it, but I do find that when I talk about it, I am criticised and told how wrong it is that I do it.

Consent is what matters. That is what I have talked to my teenage sons about. If we continue to claim that some acts are bad, teens will wonder what the fuss is all about and some will be more curious and want to try them, some will enjoy them. Consent is the key. Anal sex is fine between 2 consenting people.

AlpacaYourThings · 19/08/2014 23:00

Bertie, were the pictures you were sent from guys you knew?

The pics I got weren't from guys I knew, just randoms on the Internet chat rooms. ( Which is why i likened it it men in the local park flashing) I don't remember them ever asking for pictures of me naked. This was all around 2002/2003, though.

ScarlettlovesRhett · 19/08/2014 23:04

I was sexually 'about' from 1990 to 2000 (when I met husband), I agree re anal not being the norm. I was very active and had one 'accidental slippage' where he was told to fuck off, and towards the end of the decade was asked maybe twice to try - said "no" and was not coerced any more.

I blame lads mags in the late 90s for normalising it all and then obviously the internet for making it so easily accessible and available for the young teens to start believing it as the norm.

I am so glad I am not a teenager now, it is a very different world; it's as hard for the boys as it is for the girls I think, and I worry for them all.

Loveneverfails · 19/08/2014 23:05

In the 90's I lost my virginity to rape by my 'boyfriend' who loved to watch porn videos and had no idea of seeking consent.

I did not know how to say no or that I could.

I still struggle with the fact he vaginally raped me. If it had been anal too or only anal I think it would have been worse for me for some reason as I did not even KNOW that this was part of anybody's sex life options.

I was so naive. This was in the mid nineties.

I break my heart for young girls today. I know how hard it has been for me to feel like a slab of beef used for pleasure.

gussiegrips · 19/08/2014 23:05

Most absolutely nodding along with you about consent.

And, it starts young - my 10 year old had an innoncent smooch with a beau on holiday. "so, I hear there was a kiss?" "NO! Well, I did, but, only for a bet, mum"

She was then subjected to a long and detailed monologue chat about how she should only kiss people because she WANTS to.

Jeezo.

Darkesteyes · 19/08/2014 23:06

That report is harrowing.

But having grown up in a repressive (Catholic) household is no better. The result is the same......that women arent allowed to enjoy sex. The Madonna/whore complex is rife.

People saying that it is preferable very likely havent experienced it to this degree. And i do mean to the point of having to listen to my DM victim blame rape victims.

LePamplemousse · 19/08/2014 23:07

Having had my boyfriend at university a few years back repeatedly and consistently pressure me for anal sex, and having eventually given in on two occasions (hating it) this doesn't surprise me at all.
A man who never would have dreamed of pressuring me for 'regular' sex if I wasn't in the mood waged a steady and persistent campaign of persuasion. Mainly the way he eventually persuaded me was by mentioning it so often that I ended up feeling like I was somehow 'less' for not doing it, and eventually gave in and did it when I was drunk so didn't feel much. Still regret it now though because I didn't enjoy it at all and it was all for him.

LePamplemousse · 19/08/2014 23:09

Oh and I know this is totally anecdotal, just my experience, and other women do enjoy anal sex. But many of my friends have experienced similar pressure and persuasion from boyfriends; it seems almost endemic within certain groups of men.

ScarlettlovesRhett · 19/08/2014 23:09

By normalising, I don't mean 'anal sex is wrong' etc, I mean promoting the idea that 'all women love it, and all real men have their "Brown Wings" '.

(Which is the phrase that was bandied around during the reign of the 'lads mags' - yuk, yuk, yuk).

expatinscotland · 19/08/2014 23:22

I think the poster who said anal has become the way vaginal sex was in the 70s - pestering, badgering, 'persuading', coercing women into sex they don't want and in some cases, rape, is spot on.

Loveneverfails · 19/08/2014 23:26

I cant imagine being anally raped, vaginal was bad enough and still bothers me 20 years later.

If porn had shown it like it does now, he would have anally raped me I am sure.

arghhhhhh

I hate the innocence of sex being stolen from our young people

diggerdigsdogs · 20/08/2014 06:52

I was born mid 80s and sexually active from 2000. Boys my age (still in school) never pressured me for anal. Older men (Uni age and mid 20s) always did. In fact EVERY guy who pressured me into trying it had to be told to stop multiple times and I had to move away before they listened. Awful (I don't feel awful btw - I mean that they wouldn't hear No stop is awful).

I read a fair amount of romantic /erotic fiction and novels. Not online sex stories I mean books with characters who have graphic sex.

What I've noticed is how themes have moved from virgins/pure women/good girls that were often chock full of coersion, 'romantic' rape and flat out rape to some great stories with very strong women who have agency and enjoy sex, have sexual histories and know what they want. However, I've noticed in the past maybe 18 months more stories with anal sex and anal play that is always enjoyed by the women an brings them to orgasm. So is the male gaze infiltrating women's romance or is anal sex just normal?

Of my close friends I'm the only one who has never had anal sex (apart from trying it and hating it but not completing as it were) and does not do anal sex as part of my general sexual activity. Most of my friends are in their 30s.

weatherall · 20/08/2014 08:07

I agree with tiwe sexual liberation has been hijacked.

I had quite a 'colourful' sex life back in the late 90s/early 00s. Anal was something we had heard of and it was mentioned on occasion but it was still taboo. There was no expectation of it. I did try it 2 or 3 times but it was seen as something to experiment with as a novelty, not part of a regular sex life.

Anal does change the dynamics of sex from something mutually enjoyable to something a man (because it does seem to be a het thing, not something lesbians have embraced) does to a woman. There doesn't seem to be a reversal, like women using dildos on men's anuses.

It's pornification and rapey. Why would a woman consent to something that she will get no sexual pleasure from and could cause her damage unless there was some form of coercion?

I really fear for my DCs, and this whole generation growing up like this.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 20/08/2014 10:18

I hate the innocence of sex being stolen from our young people

I also hate that the idea of sex as something pleasurable is stolen from girls.

19th century: Endure sex for the sake of your husband
21th century: Act like a pornstar for the sake of your male partner

Still a prostitution model of sex (someone joylessly performing for the other) between men and women is seen as ideal by men.

NewEraNewMindset · 20/08/2014 11:31

I think it's exceptionally important to be really open about sex with out teenagers and talk about porn and how ridiculous it is that boys are assuming that these girls are enjoying it when they are being paid to endure it.

If we can burst the bubble of porn being held up as a sex manual whilst trying to empower teenage girls to choose their own sex lives when they are ready and not bow down to peer pressure, then we are halfway there.

I came from quite a repressed family where even though I could talk about pretty much anything with my Mum, sex not so much. My father was also very old fashioned and pretty strict in that area. I am the total opposite with my partner, we talk about sex a lot and I tell him if I think our sex life is slipping or the foreplay is disappearing. I'm hoping that we will keep a fairly free dialogue as my son gets older and we will be able to discuss stuff with him.

Maybe I'm dreaming but I'm hoping he will recognise porn as a wank tool only and not be expecting his future girlfriends to be a size 8 mute with a penchant for gang bangs.

Branleuse · 20/08/2014 11:51

im a sex positive third wave feminist and i dont think there has always been pressure on girls from boys and even peer pressure from other girls to mature sexually before they might want to.
I cant entirely protect my sons or daughter from whatever new sex craze is fashionable when theyre of an age. Nor can I protect them from rape.
I can only go on and on about consent which I do and will continue to.
Im not anti porn, although I am aware of the issues with it these days and won't shy away from discussing it realistically. I dont think there is an epidemic of girls being anally raped. I think teenage years are full of coercive behaviour from both genders more than at anyother time in life, and the worries about permissive and sexually dangerous attitudes have been around forever in various forms.

To be any more scared for your children now tgan at any other point in history is ridiculous. Children are believed much more than ever

JustTheRightBullets · 20/08/2014 11:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Branleuse · 20/08/2014 12:06

i think people assuming that women dont actually like anal sex and get no pleasure from it, and are entirely victims of it, doesnt actually help anyone.
The issue is consent. Rape and coercian is never ok.
Asking a partner to try something is ok. Wanting a specific kind of sex is ok. There is a line somewhere that is crossed because teenagers are notoriously oversexed, risk takers and lack boundaries and want to fit in. Its a dangerous combination, but it was no different when i started having sex in the early 90s.

Branleuse · 20/08/2014 12:07

I dont think my friends growing up were as much into anal or shaving pubes, but i dont think it was much different apart from that

JustTheRightBullets · 20/08/2014 12:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

grimbletart · 20/08/2014 12:26

What sort of sex is academic really. What is needed is for boys to be taught to respect consent and that nagging for something a girl doesn't want to do is not consent, and for girls to understand that they do not have to do anything just because it's 'cool' or an immature adolescent boy is a nagging prat.

I ranted about this earlier because what makes me angry is the fact that some/many? girls today when equality is more or less accepted as a principle by any but the darkest of cave dwellers don't seem to have the belief in equality or the self esteem to make their own decisions.

I and my friends clearly recall being accused of being frigid or being prudes because we did not go along with some 16 year olds' fantasies. And our attitude was "so what"? We will do what we want to do and won't do what we don't and if you don't like it, on your bike.

But then we were the generation that made ourselves extremely unpopular with the patriarchy by demanding equal pay and equal job opportunities. So maybe we still had a streak of post war toughness about us.

Don't expect anyone to particularly agree with me. But that's tough too. Smile

Branleuse · 20/08/2014 12:26

who knows? Seems pretty popular.

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 12:32

" think people assuming that women dont actually like anal sex and get no pleasure from it, and are entirely victims of it, doesnt actually help anyone."

No-one has said this Confused

We are talking about the report in the OP which was about 16-18 year olds and anal sex and had some really disturbing conclusions. What is your view on the report?

SevenZarkSeven · 20/08/2014 12:35

"Branleuse Wed 20-Aug-14 12:26:29
who knows? Seems pretty popular."

From the report:

"Results Anal heterosex often appeared to be painful, risky and coercive, particularly for women. Interviewees frequently cited pornography as the ‘explanation’ for anal sex, yet their accounts revealed a complex context with availability of pornography being only one element. Other key elements included competition between men; the claim that ‘people must like it if they do it’ (made alongside the seemingly contradictory expectation that it will be painful for women); and, crucially, normalisation of coercion and ‘accidental’ penetration. It seemed that men were expected to persuade or coerce reluctant partners.

Conclusions Young people's narratives normalised coercive, painful and unsafe anal heterosex. This study suggests an urgent need for harm reduction efforts targeting anal sex to help encourage discussion about mutuality and consent, reduce risky and painful techniques and challenge views that normalise coercion."

JustTheRightBullets · 20/08/2014 12:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.