The Feminist Pub (continued).

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Been busy. Came back today to have a look but the Pub thread was full! Shall we continue here?

Third episode of Borgen on tonight.

No, I'm a coward.

Tea, anyone?

Oooh, I'll have a nice tea. Milk, no sugar please.

There you go, Sabrina

I am alone at home with my darling offspring.
We are all in our jammies, ds2 is still in bed (which reminds me, I was going to go and poke him with a big stick at 11am) and we have no plans at all.

I might tackle some of the Christmas debris. Maybe .

I like sex...... sometimes.

I agree that it's strange how all the men who come here with their 'curiosity' are mostly interested in freedom and choice about selling sex, they don't seem as concerned about freedom for women in other areas of their lives.

Has everybody had a nice Christmas?

We went to mil's house for Boxing day and I think I may have infected her with my feminism . She sat down and chatted to us while step-fil cooked the dinner, then the men were instructed to clear up after it. This is a clear departure from any other time we've been there where she's done it all and sfil would sit doing nothing. She also excelled herself with presents this year. Dd2 got a couple of 'girly' presents so did her 6yo male cousin, and she had 3 puppets for the 3 little grandchildren (7yo boy, 6yo boy, 3yo dd2), one was pink and purple, one green and one orange. Dd2 was given the GREEN one because green is her favourite colour, and my 7yo nephew was given the pink and purple one. He told mil that she'd got it mixed up and given him the one for dd2 (because obviously a pink and purple puppet is only for girls) but mil told him not to be so silly, that one was his and dd2 definitely had the right one so it was his choice whether he played with the pink one or not but it would be a shame to miss out just because he didn't want pink. I never thought she would do that, she's always been quite stereotypical with her gifts before.

Wow, it sounds like your MiL had some kind of feminist epiphany - I think you should take all credit, Anti

I am not going to read any threads on here apart from this one, another chat thread, and some recipe threads.

What I don't get is why people, specifically men with daughters, mock me about being anti-gender stereotype and wanting equal rights and opportunities for women. >

Here's to a new year that makes sense.

Antijam - well done to MIL!

I won't even tell you what I've been told these few days. If you hear of somebody going on a spree of screaming "stop stereotyping the children" in a suburb then that would be me.

I know Pacific, it's a complete turnaround from her normal present-giving. I am definitely taking the credit for it all. Now I'm working on helping her to leave her cheating husband, but that's a bit harder seeing as their lovely house comes with his job.

Thanks pacific

Why would men want sex with women who clearly don't want it? It's something I've never understood. I've asked a few of the puntertrolls over the years - and either been ignored, or given an answer that indicates they think the woman does actually fancy them. Which is obviously delusional.

Kudos to your mil antijam....my stepdad just sits back and does nothing over christmas, but my dh would never dream of such a thing

Remind me in future to just hide all 'prostitiution is great, they're all so fucking happy to be being paid to be a man's wank sock' threads. They are bad for my blood pressure and make me want to reach through the screen and shake people.

A nice chococino please bar-sister, if you would be so kind!

yy Sabrina

Maybe it's me that's twisted and perverted but surely a big part of sex is being desired and knowing that somebody wants you?

It's not all about friction, surely. Surely there's a psychological element in there. That's the bit that's not clear.
It sounds odd but the only word I can think of that describes what sex should be like - no matter what else - is comradely.

Hope there have been happy Christmases all round and here's to 2014

Hey sisters!

hope you all had a good Christmas.

Good stuff on Taylor Swift here:

rookiemag.tumblr.com/post/56131794522/hundredmilesperhour-tavi-gevinson-notes-on

Does anyone else listen to TS (or really I mean have daughters who listen to TS?)

Tough day on FWR. Proud of the posters who persist on the face of such shit.

On a lighter note, a frank but misheard discussion with DS (5) now means he thinks the difference between men and women is that women drive volvos

Excellent, BelleCurve - I do - tell him, he's right!

I've been a bit distracted, got sucked in to the John Hemming thing and am now involved in not-directly-feminist (although he is a misogynistic twat) emailing campaign.

Exciting times.
I lead a v sheltered life

I don't know how people keep plugging away, I really don't. Fair play to you all. I'm out much more than I'm in these days because it's bad on the blood pressure.
The pub is good but the streets are mean.

I like the pub - but sooner or later they'll find us here, I bet. Cocks. All of them.

So the prostitution thing - it's totally about power? Buying power over an attractive woman, who may reject him sexually in normal social situations. And demeaning her - getting her to accept cash and do something she doesn't want to do. And the bonus is he gets his rocks off - win-win for the misogynist...

Cheers everyone.

Hello!

Happy New Year (ish).

pac, good luck with that - I read bits of what's going on and it sounds very worthwhile, if a bit scary.

I have the same reaction to the prostitution threads as you, sal. There is a woman who campaigns on this issue - and she is amazing - and I do not know where she gets the patience to keep on saying 'yes, you may want to think prostitution is lovely and everyone is Belle de Jour, but I am here to tell you that for me, as a child, it was like this'.

Awful. I just don't understand how anyone could read and know that even one child is involved in this and still think it's acceptable to argue for some form of regulated abuse.

(The smile at the top of my post now looks completely inappropriate, sorry.)

I can't get thoughts about prostitution to line up properly in my head.

Yes, some men will get off on the thought of having paid for sex and having the woman do something she ultimately does not really want to do, but for one reason or another (often coercion or economical or lack of choices in life etc) 'has' to do.
I think though that there is a large number of men who use prostitutes/pay for sex who need to believe that 'they love their job' - that they are providing a service not dissimilar to, say, the cleaning lady you employ. Who may or may not 'love' her job.

I also don't get the whole 'men are slaves to their urges' - utter claptrap.
See the numerous 'wanking' threads on here - really? Just because a person is in a relationship they lose all rights to their own bodies??

Sorry, I digress. The main thing that bothers me about prostitution is the power imbalance. Between sex worker and 'client', between sex worker and pimp, between sex worker and pretty much any person with another kind of job. Really pretty much similar issues I have with porn. And that is before we even come to trafficking and rape .

Yes, I agree - I think there are lots of men who need to believe prostitutes love their jobs. Or that those jobs are basically just similar to anything else demanding and tiring.

IMO it's a big part of the power imbalance that it is possible for men to persuade themselves of this.

It may be because if they accepted the reality they couldn't sleep at night*, so being in denial is their survival mode.

*Though of course the fact that men who using prostitutes are at best losers and at worst total arseholes could mean they don't need to deny it because they don't give a bugger about anyone else or anything else than their their own selfish wants (I refuse to call them 'needs' as that is colluding with the big lie).

Sorry I missed the big fight you are all talking about, perhaps partly deliberately. It gets so tiring - and much respect to those who keep going.

I think I might actually have to go on a course or something about girls and sex education. I keep reading threads on here about pregnant 14 year olds and the like and it makes me so angry that girls (and boys) seem to be sold some sort of thing about sex that you have to do, or everyone does, or something. Disney movies are giving me the rage because dd1 is obsessed with marriage and handsome princes and I feel this weird atavistic fear and anger that this is going to turn into some very dangerous 14 year old's equivalent. Even if they don't get pregnant from it, I really don't want my brilliant girls wasting their lives mooning over boys!

Anyway I have no role model. I have talked about this on here before but I don't want to do what my mother did(n't) do. I am so lucky nothing awful happened to me as I was so lonely and desperate that I was pretty vulnerable. I think I actually need someone to teach me how to do this.

can anyone recommend a book, or a course, or anything else?

I also need to start opening up to them before it is too late. I am too uptight I think and find talking about bodies very embarrassing. I need to get over this before dds pick up on it and ask their friends questions instead of me. How do you all do this? What do normal people do?

They are only little but I can remember being about 3 when my mum was angrily dismissive of me for asking where babies come from.

at the same time, my worrying about this is not in itself quite healthy and this is why I wonder about a course because perhaps I myself need to be in touch with some sort of expert (not quite sure what I mean by this)

Re the prostitution thing I think there are two factors
I think (massive generalisation alert) that men and women on teh whole do think differently about sex. The Gatekeeper role is not entirely foisted on us for societal reasons, there are good solid biological reasons why we'd hesitate. The risks are too great for 10 enjoyable minutes. Men don't have this. I don't think this is conscious thought; I think it's the canvas our conscious thought is painted on. ( Is this the PIV argument I'm paraphrasing? Not sure).

So maybe, to some men, having sex with randoms could be a rather fun job, or have fun parts to it, or be at least no worse than many other jobs people have to do. These men wouldn't be the most empathetic of people...

I think the rigid demarcation of the sexes, beginning in childhood, actively goes against the development of empathy for each other. See how boys rarely get the chance to empathise or identify with female main characters in films and stories, for one example. Wouldn't it be great if little boys routinely cheered on a girl's triumphs, were sad about her setbacks and felt her fear when confronted by the scary monster? Putting himself in her shoes to feel ordinary human emotions. Girls feel that for boys all teh time. I does have an effect, tiny but cumulative.

So I can see how you needn't be a burning misogynist to go to prostitutes. (though it helps) You just have to feel slightly apart.

I don't know Mildred but I'd be interested in the response you get. IIRC my girls are a similar age to yours