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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Feminist Pub (continued).

999 replies

UptoapointLordCopper · 23/11/2013 20:02

Been busy. Came back today to have a look but the Pub thread was full! Shock Shall we continue here?

Third episode of Borgen on tonight. Smile

OP posts:
AntiJamDidi · 22/12/2013 23:34

I said something very similar to that pacific but apparently thats completely different because it is a choice to have children but nobody chooses to have cancer.

lego I hate when people assume no career when they find out you have children. I was at a children's birthday party yesterday and the grandma was filling me in on all the gossip about one of the other guests, apparently she's superwoman because she only took 6 months maternity leave with each of her 2 dc, and she works ft, and her dh is an "absolute hero" because he has gone pt flexi-time so that the baby isn't in childcare Xmas Hmm. She didn't quite know what to say when I said that that's a perfectly normal set-up these days and she'd just described my household as well, except dp was ft when dd2 was a baby so she with our fabulous cm ft from 6 months. She didn't tell me any more gossip about anyone else Xmas Grin

AntiJamDidi · 22/12/2013 23:35

I didn't think you were Pacific

kickassangel · 23/12/2013 02:48

I knew when I had dd that I would be back at work fairly quickly. It has still taken me 10 years to really be comfortable with the fact that I like my job and want to be ther more often than not. I get being stuck at home.

Had a fab day with dd today doing Christmas crafty things, and I don't really like a lot if craft but she was totes impressed with everything I made, so I was happy. I'm looking forward to this week but will be more than ready to go back to work by Jan 6

PacificDingbat · 23/12/2013 09:24

Well, yes, having children is a choice that most of us here were lucky enough to be able to make (good grief, awkward grammar!), but if we all stopped having children humankind would kind of be up shit's creek, wouldn't it? Wink.
Not likely to happen of course, but if we want people younger than ourselves to be available then somebody has to have kids. And kids tend to interrupt life a tad - at least that is my experience so people who opt to have children need that to be taken in to consideration.

Yes, cancer is very rarely a choice... Xmas Blush.

My work is in principle a very small company, 5 co-ownsers, me included. There are still places like mine where the partnership agreement only allows for Statutory Maternity Leave (6 weeks). We've always been v family friendly (which tbh was one of the attractions when I joined before I had children), and still, I feel a bit guilty that I had 4 sets of 6 monthly mat leave in 7 years. Stupid, really, but I cannot help it and now that I am out of the worst of baby fog, I really feel I owe my colleagues. The funny thing is though, we've all had extended leave for various reasons, mainly mat leave and sick leave (some of it rather extended - see above).

DH never had to consider all that of course... otoh, I know, that he would have loved to have more time at home when the kids where tiny (well, not with screaming DS1 maybe... Wink).

A set amount of parental leave that the parents can split between them as they wish, seems sensible to me.

PenguinsDontEatStollen · 23/12/2013 22:00

Not very Christmassey and I apologise for the DM link, but fuck me woman literally as incubator. Her own preferences, her husband's views, the medical benefits to her of continuing treatment. None of it it matters. Isn't even weighed in the balance. The only thing that counts is that she's pregnant.

I hope it is just shit DM reporting the way they also blithley talk about delivering the feotus at 24-28 weeks. So after it all, they deliver the baby dangerously early.

UptoapointLordCopper · 24/12/2013 09:33

Penguins Shock Sad

Hope everyone is not too badly affected by the storm.

I'm completely addicted to Hashiwokakero puzzles ATM...

OP posts:
PenguinsDontEatStollen · 24/12/2013 09:45

All safe and sound here. Hope everyone else is ok and has heat and electricity.

Happy Christmas!

benid · 24/12/2013 10:26

Just popping my head round the door to wish you all a merry xmas.. thanks too for all the interesting things I've read here in FWR (including in the pub) this year .. have a good one!

TheDoctrineOfSanta · 24/12/2013 10:34

Our power went off briefly but all is well now.

Happy Christmas sisters! May 2014 bring us peace, equality and lots of nice wine. Flowers

youretoastmildred · 24/12/2013 11:24

Happy Christmas Eve (or winter festival of choice) to all lovely feminists!

child-friendly policies and the childless: I actually agree that those without children shouldn't be forced to have their noses to the corporate grindstone their whole adult lives, any more than those with. Looking after family is just one of the very important things we have to do as humans that does not directly enrich our corporate bosses. but whining about the human-based, flexible policies we do have (which happen to be focused mainly on the family right now, but hell you have to start somewhere) is absolutely the wrong way to go about making this point. "human-centred working for all!" is not a catchy battle cry but it makes a better point than "whine sulk not FAIR".
I often want to make this point when US colleagues (who were mothers) snipe at my long maternity leave (or did when I was just back). I wanted to say "I know you are envious that I had something that you didn't, but don't you think you could increase the chances of everything getting this by sounding positive about it?" the work-shy, jammy-european-socialists rhetoric just plays into the hands of people who think that mat leave or family friendly policies are for scroungers and could Never Happen Here (here being the US in this context)

I am struggling today. Dp retired to bed ill yesterday and I felt a bit lonely after bathtime, wrapping up the final presents by myself, worrying about whether he would be well enough to travel, and then all night listening to the wind chucking wheelie bins up and down the street and ripping up fence panels. And bizarrely worrying about how romance-crazed dd1 is going to be a worry as a teenager! FFS she is four and a half. I couldn't talk to my mum about anything and I must work really hard on doing a better job. I think I actually need counselling or something though because worrying about things that far into the future is just bonkers.
So, tired and feeling nastily menstrual today. DP has grey-facedly taken the dds out to the park to get the crazy little people some exercise and give me some headspace to pack. He doesn't look well at all.
I feel guilty about him doing that because he isn't well but on the other hand do not have time to do that, and pack, and there is a long car journey this afternoon and if they don't run off some of their energy this morning, this evening is going to be hellacious. So.... here I am mn-ing just to clear some of the AAAAAAAAARGH out of my head. phew. I don't cope well with lots of little people talking at me all the time.

Also trying to explain to a two-year-old why "sorry, poo-poo-pants" is not a proper apology is a challenge.

I hope all of you and your various homesteads are standing up ok under the pressure of the storm. No injuries I hope

happy Christmas all

monicalewinski · 24/12/2013 11:27

Merry Christmas to everyone - and a happy new year. I'm still struggling to accept it's Christmas tomorrow - it sneaks up on me every year!

Can't wait until tomorrow morning, that's my favourite bit "he's been!!!!!". Only one believer now, and I don't want him to ever grow up Xmas Sad.

See you all on the other side!

Xmas GrinXmas Grin

youretoastmildred · 24/12/2013 11:31

how old is your believer, Monica?

My four year old has noticed that all the various Santas at different events around Christmas are different people and it has, I think, sown seeds of doubt although they are not clearly articulated. she does ask a lot of questions these days, very pointedly, about what is real and what is not.
the most recent one was yesterday she asked if the baby Jesus was real. I was able to say with absolute confidence that the baby Jesus was a definite, real, historical human being, born in Palestine. She did not take it further which was something of a relief

TheDoctrineOfSanta · 24/12/2013 11:35

Breathe, Mildred. This too shall pass.

Flowers Wine [hug]

LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/12/2013 11:41

Happy Christmas, sisters!

*monica, that made me smile.

youretoastmildred · 24/12/2013 11:42

Thanks Doctrine! I am fine now thanks! just needed 5 minutes quiet "to hear myself think" as old school mothers always said.
Actually I am well, happy and unbelievably lucky, looking forward to a happy Christmas with the generation above and below me all well, the most important things
happy christmas all xxx

monicalewinski · 24/12/2013 11:45

My believer is 8 - my other boy was 11 in May this year (started secondary in Sep) and I had to tell him after Xmas last year that Santa wasn't real. I am a rubbish liar with real lies, but for some reason I can peddle this sort of thing well!

He did ask outright last year (10 yr old) and I just replied with "well do you believe? If you you believe then he's real to you" and that seemed to do the trick (I have him on board for my 8 yr old now).

They cottened on quite young to the Santa's grotto ones, so I used to say they all worked for Santa as Santa was v busy etc.

Hope you have a good journey Mildred, at least the weather seems to have calmed down a bit - have a lovely Christmas.

monicalewinski · 24/12/2013 11:47

Aaah! Loads of posts! Merry Christmas everyone !

LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/12/2013 11:54

I am excited too. Smile

I know surroundings are trivial, but this time last year we were living in a flat with a horrible damp problem, no heating and a manky brown carpet, and trying to make it feel Christmassy was a bit tricky. Here we've got a proper tree for the first time and I keep staring at it. Grin

I'm sure there's a feminist point hidden in there somewhere, though I'm not sure what it is.

MooncupGoddess · 24/12/2013 12:26

Surroundings are not trivial at all! I am lying in front of my father's woodburning stove and it is bliss.

(I've just finished reading Knight's Fee after you mentioned it on another thread, LRD - I am a great Sutcliff fan but had quite forgotten this one, so many thanks. Cake Though I find it slightly irritating that almost all her novels are totally male-focused, with a single Nice Quirky Girl who pops up two-thirds of the way through the book and is swiftly identified by ther hero as his future wife.)

LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/12/2013 12:32

Oooh, sounds lovely. Envy We've got a fireplace but we didn't get around to having it swept, so it has candles in it instead of an actual fire. Looks pretty, though.

Knight's Fee is brilliant. I share your irritation about the female characters - though she gets points for de Belleme and Herluin who are surely at it like rabbits.

PenguinsDontEatStollen · 24/12/2013 12:41

Oh, my 4 year old has totally already sussed that not all the Father Christmas' are real. I've just levelled with her on that bit : No, they aren't real. Do you think one person could be in all those shopping centres and school fairs all around the world at the very same time? It's people who dress up as Father Christmas because it is fun to do that at Christmas".

Festive surrounding are important. Surrounding are important generally to your mental wellbeing I think.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/12/2013 12:47

That is true. Smile

TerrariaMum · 24/12/2013 12:49

Happy Christmas Eve all, and Penguins, I was remiss as well and forgot to congratulate you on your pregnancy. So congratulations now.

We have decorated our fig tree and our living room is filled with the chaos of three year old DD1's Duplo. It makes me feel that our house is really a home so am entirely in agreement with Penguins.

kickassangel · 24/12/2013 13:42

Happy Christmas. We are all full if cold here but dd wanted Lego so when the presents go out there are done BIG boxes all wrapped up and shiny under the tree. I know she will be excited.

Our last house had a coal fire. It was fab when we lit it. Here we have fake ones with a remote control so not really the same, but we might switch it on as we open presents.

And we have snow!

PacificDingbat · 24/12/2013 15:59

Happy Christmas Eve to you all Xmas Smile

mildred, I hope you get to you destination safely and have a lovely time once there. And good health to you and yours - and everybody else who feels a bit poorly.

I worked this morning - 'til 3pm Hmm - the joys.
Christmas is a really difficult time for a lot of people and in my job there've been daily reminders of this.
Makes me v grateful for what I have: DH and DS1 playing chess Shock, DS2 plugged in to MineCraft Hmm, DS3 and 4 playing somehwere and NOT currently at each other's throats...

DS1 and 2 no longer believe, but want to believe IYKWIM? So, I don't deny and I don't confirm. And DS3 and 4 are only 5 and 3 so will still believe for another 10 years or so...

And I am sitting in front of a roaring open fire, laptop on my lap and mug of Brew next to me, soon to be replaced by something a bit more special... Peace and light to you all x.

PS thank you for letting me enjoy the Pub - I've been a lurker on FWR and this has been a very easy way 'in'.

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