The Feminist Pub (continued).

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Been busy. Came back today to have a look but the Pub thread was full! Shall we continue here?

Third episode of Borgen on tonight.

[MooncupGoddess]

Thanks everyone!

That is a good quote, mildred. Choice is better than no choice, certainly... but it is such a small part of the picture compared to the powerful scripts about women and their natures and their roles that are so deeply embedded in our society.

[PenguinsDontEatKale]

Grennie - I agree. Also basic expectations of respect between partners in a relationship are so often pissed all over by people saying it's unrealistic or unfair or controlling. There was a rash of them with men going out on the lash at Christmas and ignoring whatever had been agreed about communication/coming home. And soooo many posts missing the point that it was nothing to do with what had been agreed and whether that was reasonable, but the the total ignoring of that agreement and lack of communication.

The lesbian one made me quite sad too.

As do the threads about waxing. I really shouldn't read those. I couldn't give a flying fuck if one individual woman wants to wax her labia (though ouch, ouch, ouch. I would have to be paid in gold bullion). But it's the determined refusal to see that it is not simply a choice about personal preference, cleanliness, etc but one shaped by society and, in particular, by porn. I mean, I shave my armpits. I could say I just like them smooth, or that it's cleaner, or whatever, but I am fully aware that about 0.5% of men feel this way (because society doesn't tell them to) and about 99.99% of women feel like this (because society does tell them to). I'd just really like some awareness that we don't make our choices in a cultural vacuum. And that, particularly with genital waxing, it's no coincidence that the widespread availability of hardcorn porn via the internet has grown up at the same time as this fashion. Funnily enough, as a girl changing in the swimming baths in the early 80s, I don't remember many fully shaved women changing alongside me (and, in that childlike way, I do remember being fascinated by women's bodies, and asking my mum about section scars and things).

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Waxing labia!??? That must be painful...

I can't think of my male colleagues without thinking "I wonder how much unearned privilege he's had". Help me!

[PenguinsDontEatKale]

Outer ones, not inner. . Still though...

[PacificDogwood]

Oh goodness, it was mooncup with the new niece - I am so sorry I got it wrong.

Lots and lots of depressing threads. I am at times tempted to 'hide' Relationships, but then I feel a coward wanting to do that.
Some of the chat ones are hideous too.

Re waxing, well, I am old enough to remember a time when a full on Hollywood was not, you know, compulsory to be 'clean' (I find a daily was if fine) or 'sexy' (no complaints so far) or 'fashion savvy' (fashions change - meh. And I just don't care enough and never have about trends. Double meh).
And yes, Penguins, like you, I don't give a flying monkeys what anybody does with their own pubes, but to pretend that there are no societal pressures on these 'choices' is just.... stupid daft.

Just like the whole 'pink' debate: "Oh, but my little girl just loves pink" .

[AntiJamDidi]

Penguins I don't wax anything, it sounds too painful and I don't think it's necessary. I also don't think it's necessary to shave my armpits or tidy my bikiniline but I do both of them because it's easier than dealing with people giving me wierd looks or comments when I wear sleeveless tops or go swimming. So I do the whole personal grooming thing but I am completely open about the fact that I only do it because society expects me to (and I might possibly be quite vocal to dp and dd1 about the fact that I hate the fact that I have to shave my armpits but dp doesn't). I even went swimming yesterday and none of the women in the changing rooms seemed to have shaved bits (none of them seemed to have any modesty either, no hiding behind towels for them, everything out and on show while they chat to their mates) but they were all older, I didn't see anyone younger than about 50 there (except me at 34 - I felt good cos I was the only person not doing old person swimming with heads above water )

Pacific My dd2 LOVES pink too. Her natural inclination is to go for green but she knows already, at 3, that she should like pink, so that's what she tells people is her favourite colour. I've had to work quite hard persuade her that it's ok to prefer green, so now she has 2 favourite colours. She wears a lot of pink clothes too, because it's just easier to find clothes that fit her in pink or purple, but her favourite outfit is completely green.

And yes to wanting to hide threads about partners completely disregarding agreements. I've read a few threads like that over the past few weeks and it makes me dispair that so many people think this is ok. Surely it's better for both partners to respect their partners and do what they agreed to do. My dp would, quite rightly, be beside himself with worry if I was 6 hours late home, yet it seems like a lot of men do it quite regularly. Ex-bil worked away and would text from the train saying "Train gets in at 6, so I'll see you at 6:30" then he would roll home pissed at midnight. Luckily my sis got rid of him, but she put up with that behaviour for 6 years first.

[PacificDogwood]

2 of my 4 boys had a 'pink' phase (DS1 used to say 'abink' - aw ) but by the time they were between 3 and 4 they had 'got' the message that that was a "girl" colour .

So, so limiting. My favourite colour is red (and moss green. And some blues ), but sometime I feel it ought to be blue or khaki or black or something 'manly'. And then I think, well, that's just conforming with another cliché...

[AntiJamDidi]

I like greens and blues and purples. My youngest nephew loved pink a couple of years ago but then he started pre-school and within weeks he claimed that pink was yuk and just for girls, now he 'likes' blue but still loves to play with dd2's pink stuff whenever he gets a chance

[TheDoctrineOf2014]

We're going to need another pub soon!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm keeping my eye on it.

Btw, I don't go in relationships much. I just reckon I've got nothing to say, and either the situation doesn't need one more voice saying something similar to the others, or - frankly - I do not believe the thread. And usually, those then disappear. God knows how people who post there regularly do it.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

I don't really have a favourite colour. It's one of those "security question" that really stumps me. I also don't notice colour of eyes and hair. And I never look at the relationship threads for the same reasons as LRD.

This is a really interesting post, isn't it.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

No, but it is, isn't it? I don't think I have one either. It probably says all sorts of pseudo-scientific stuff about us.

[PacificDogwood]

Yes, you're both just weird .

[TheDoctrineOf2014]

Perhaps you can both adopt green, white and purple as your favourite colours?

[PacificDogwood]

I often ponder why I allow myself to be sucked in to Relathionship threads. Or threads about relationships in Chat. Hm. I am not sure. I have no special expertise, but I find myself shouting at the laptop as I type "Respect yourself a bit, sister!". Or words to that effect....

It is depressing reading sometimes. The trolly/goady ones... oh well. I ignore. Mostly.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

doctrine but then I won't remember them! One colour is very much like another...

[Grennie]

I loved blue and red as a girl. But colours werent so gendered then, so that was pretty ordinary. There were blue doll prams for sale.

Relationships seems to be worse at the moment. Not the threads about women being treated badly by male partners, they have always been there, but the responses. I have never commented that much in relationships because I have always felt confident some MNers will be saying clearly when things are unacceptable. But altely their voices seem to be getting drowned out by the voices basically making excuses and telling women to put up with it. So I am commenting.

[youretoastmildred]

Good, Grennie. someone has to.

looks like everyone here is surreptitiously dozing over the Sunday papers, so I will help myself to a cappuccino.

This morning, as I pushed the pushchair uphill with dd2 in it with one hand while holding dd1's hand with the other, I noticed a group of 4 lycra-clad men loitering in a group on the other side of the road with their posh-looking bikes. They were there for a while, for several minutes, chatting and waiting for - what? someone else? There is no pavement on that side of the road. Just as I was drawing level with them, they picked that exact moment (although nothing visible had happened like someone else turning up) to cross the road and wheel their bikes in front of us, on the pavement, in a group, at 1 mile an hour. I was furious at the pointless inconvenience to us and - yes! - actually said something! They blocked us completely and were not even aware of our existence. (I have no idea anyway why you have to wear lycra to wheel a bike at a slower pace than a 4-year-old walking.)

Part of the conversation (with the one person who deigned to notice me) was me saying "there are 3 people here trying to get somewhere." He looked genuinely confused for a minute. At least 2 of the people hadn't registered with him as such at all. Being all female, all quite small, and two of us children, we hadn't even aggregated to being one whole human worthy of consideration between us. He said "sorry, love" but was obviously mystified. Just then the pavement started on the other side of the road again so I cross and dd1 tripped over the pushchair and fell in the middle of the road. Completely unreasonably, I blame him for this. GRRR

Second in my very first world list of feminist issues, is the letter I was cc'd on to my GP from my consultant. It says, "Thank you for sending this very pleasant lady to me..." and goes on to say what he proposes to do. WTF? I did not ask for a comment on my pleasantness or otherwise, I doubt my GP did either. The horrible (tho obviously not releastic) implication is that if I had been in a grouchy mood that day (or, face it, less apparently posh) the letter would say "Thank you for sending that unpleasant lady to me. I don't propose to do anything for her as I don't like her." Really of course, I want to know if all letters he sends about male patients are like this. "Thank you for sending that charming - and in fact quite fit! - young man to see me". Do you think he does this?


I know that given all the things that men do to women all over the world, these are very very little things. But I just came here to tell you, I don't mind if you ignore me and continue to drowse over the supplements full of healthy January recipes involving lentils.

Have a good Sunday all

[UptoapointLordCopper]

mildred I have seen one of those GP letters starting with exactly the same wording - I think it's a template they fill in... Not that it's any less annoying ...

I've got a tickly cough now. Harrumph. Just in time for starting work.

[youretoastmildred]

Really? ha ha I am not pleasant at all!
Do you know whether they say the same for a man?

[TheDoctrineOf2014]

I've had "pleasant" in a referral letter written by a female doctor. It is the template and maybe a secret code

[PacificDogwood]

Yes, there is a long tradition of referring to patients as 'pleasant' in referral letters - men and women.
I've been in medicine long enough to know this was done as a matter or course (I've probably done it myself), to see it falling out of favour and to now know how condescending it must sound.

For once it's not a feminist issue IMO, but rather a kind of 'us vs them' thing: 'us' the medical gods judging everybody else as to their 'pleasantness'.
And yes, in the bad old days there was all sorts of value judgements in letters (NFM - 'normal for Mauchline' or insert any other place) or 'this excentric gentleman' (he did not just accept what I told him).
Now things are much, much more neutral but the 'pleasant' gets still used quite a lot.

[PacificDogwood]

Oh, it's not a template, just a bad habit.

[youretoastmildred]

ok! Very interesting.

This:

"but rather a kind of 'us vs them' thing: 'us' the medical gods judging everybody else as to their 'pleasantness'."

I see - I am not all little, under his condescending microscope, because I am a woman, but because I am a mere-lay-woman. I see!

[UptoapointLordCopper]

It's my new year's resolution to be resolutely UNpleasant. I've had it up to here > with being fucking pleasant. Bollocks to being pleasant.

There.

Harrumph.

(Back-to-work-tomorrow Syndrom. )