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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Something that's been bothering me

830 replies

mumwithdice · 01/04/2012 10:25

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 05/04/2012 19:28

Well SF I would appreciate it if you could be bothered to explain. Sexual violence being quite an upsetting subject and all that. Up to you, no obligation of course. I think it is a personal attack to imply that people have 'mental baggage' that explains things about them.

garlicbutter · 05/04/2012 19:29

my feminist clinical psychologist didn't rubbish ...

To clarify: didn't rubbish it as you have.

scottishmummy · 05/04/2012 19:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

esperance · 05/04/2012 19:42

Garlicbutter.

What is a metaphor for feminism?

TrophyEyes · 05/04/2012 19:47

Can we refrain from personal attacks please? They don't really help. Especially after a member of the site has just explained a potentially triggering personal experience.

Esperance, I hope you're OK. I've just messaged you.

garlicbutter · 05/04/2012 19:48

I find many aspects of abusive processes - and recovery from them - informative about oppressive societal systems and confronting them. Vice versa, too. I find the power dynamics of relationships extremely relevant to modern feminism. So did my psychologist. You haven't read my posts around this, have you? Not even on this thread?

Nyac · 05/04/2012 19:56

Hope you are OK esperance.

Very sorry that happened to you. And you're absolutely right, this thread doesn't need ridiculous "sketches" mocking and deriding women in such a sexist manner, when there is real life hatred, violence and misogyny to describe that men mete out to women, in places like work or education to report.

scottishmummy · 05/04/2012 19:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Nyac · 05/04/2012 20:00

For anybody who is unclear, the feminist response to someone who has been hurt by men, right up to including rape, is "We believe you and we support you", not telling them they are unable to think straight.

Esperance, pay no attention to the people trying to undermine you. They are out of order.

TrophyEyes · 05/04/2012 20:04

ScottishMummy, it's a lot easier said than done to advise someone who's just been triggered to avoid oversharing. I know at the height of my PTSD, I probably shared more than I'd be comfortable with sharing now. But the way you and Garlic spoke to someone who, it seems, has been triggered by the way this thread has turned is absolutely vile.

It's worth noting, in trigger mode, it's common for people who've been triggered to become slightly confused in what's been said. You do NOT treat this by telling the individual that they've "lost composure". No, she's lost the patriarchy's definition of composure. But hey, let's just silence women again, shall we?

I'm actually disgusted at the way both of you just spoke to Esperance. Regardless of whether you thought she had misrepresented your views or not, you jumped on her like carrion, and that, that is vile as it comes. What the hell happened to empathy and understanding, especially after someone has shared such a traumatic experience? Or is that too much to ask?

TrophyEyes · 05/04/2012 20:05

Esperance, We Believe You.

I hope you're ok if you're still lurking.

garlicbutter · 05/04/2012 20:12

I've taken great care not to insult esperanca, call her a liar or to use her distress against her. That's a greater courtesy than she did me. Just setting the record straight.

With apologies for raising old threads, I've been told by some posters on here to "just stay away from the thread" when obviously suffering a flashback. Some others, also here, were more empathetic and I thank them.

Distressed or not, snide remarks about scottishmummy's writing style are out of order. NB: this is not an 'alignment' with anybody else, it's an expression of distaste.

I'm fed up with being invalidated, anyway, so will hide this thread at last (did I hear a sigh of relief? Grin) I done said my bit(s) and somebody heard me. That matters.

Nyac · 05/04/2012 20:14

Yes we heard you slagging off women in a sexist manner GB. Well done.

scottishmummy · 05/04/2012 20:20

The trauma esperance described is vile
I have cast no aspersions on that nor have I disputed it,why would I?
however, when specifically misrepresented I will refute that assertion

garlicbutter · 05/04/2012 20:24

You say you heard that, and I believe you. I haven't intended to "slag off women in a sexist manner" at any point. My younger self probably did unwittingly do that at times, but I consciously gave it up years ago.

When somebody 'hears' something other than what I meant, I normally acknowledge a miscommunication and try again. This time, though, I feel the intention to hear otherwise was present to such a degree, it wouldn't matter how I rephrased my words. So I'm giving up.

esperance · 05/04/2012 20:27

Hey, thanks to all of you who sent me private messages.

I am an oldie. I rang the police within minutes. The guy had a gun to my head. It was a clear cut case of stranger rape. There were finger prints on the window sills where he broke in. I went to court. My rapist was put into prison for seven years. Mine was a case of stranger rape by an intruder with a gun. I was a very young woman at the time. From the perspective of the judiciary I was a perfect victim.

I never had to endure not being believed.

My eldest son is 31. I have gone on to live a full life.

However, if you fuck with me I just might kill you {grin}

Nyac · 05/04/2012 20:32

It happened. It's not about belief. It's your words on the page:

"babygirl women"

"dipshit girly behaviour"

"Babygirl: Oh, can you pleeease, help with this, I'm scared of it!
Man: What's the problem?
BG: Well, I was trying to do X but the YZ thing blew up! Eek!
M: Did it actually explode?
BG: Well, no, but it made a great big bang!
M: Right. So can you please explain clearly what happened when you tried to do X?
BG: There was a big bang!
M: No, where did the bang come from, was it like an explosion or more like a thud? How long after you did X was the noise?"

I know you don't intend to be sexist, I believe you, but you really need to rethink your attitudes to women and your reflexive sexist criticisms of them.

AbigailAdams · 05/04/2012 20:48

Glad you are OK esperance. Glad you got some kind of justice too.

esperance · 05/04/2012 21:56

Scottishmummy:
"frankly i do think you are so het up that your capacity to think coherently is impaired."

Oh my Scottishmummy is there no depth to which you will not sink. Have you no shame? You are questioning my coherence? You are suggesting that my coherence is impaired?

OliviaLMumsnet · 05/04/2012 22:03

Good evening all
Just a reminder of our talk guidelines
thanks
M Towers

esperance · 05/04/2012 22:10

Thanks OliviaL.

I intend to pursue this slur through my professional organisation,

scottishmummy · 05/04/2012 22:40

esperance if you seek to involve bps in an online spat off you trot
i naturally have no knowledge of your work based competences,nor have I cast aspersions on them

I did dispute the misrepresentation of my posts

esperance · 05/04/2012 22:41

A heads up to Scottishmummy about my capacity to "think coherently being impaired".

Before asking for your slur about me to deleted by MNHQ, I contacted my professional organisation, their IT specialist and their lawyer who acts on behalf of their members.

I look forward to seeing you in court.

WidowWadman · 05/04/2012 23:09

Seriously? You're instructing a lawyer to drag a "somebody's on the internet is wrong" argument into court?

Keyboardnotwarrior · 05/04/2012 23:25

I can't see how you can slander an anonymous poster.

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