Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

From the bizarre to the ridiculous.

I am astounded that all of those people were available at 8pm on the night before Good Friday and willing to take the case; subs to the PBS must be huge.

Sorry, BPS.

Just when I thought this thread couldn't sink to another low .

Yeah, let's mock a poster who has just posted about rape. Fucking A.

Way to go sisterhood - no wonder lots of you don't believe in it.

Hope you are ok esperance. So sorry to hear of what happened to you - well done on reporting. You sound like quite a woman. Take care x

Saying you have the means (and the backup) to take someone to court is extremely threatening IMO. Really shocking.

It's horrendous isn't it Beachcomber.

The best way to deal with people who are behaving like that is to ignore them esperance. Not always easy of course. But they are better off being left to deal with their own spite and bile.

ok here is my post without the paragraph that apparently broke guidelines:

this makes for sickening reading doesn't it?

esperance i just want to offer you a round of applause really for calling so clearly what GB has been doing on this thread and for your fuck metaphors comments.

so the sisterhood - yes it exists, very much so but no obviously not all women are in it and some choose to oppose themselves to it. some just don't like women, some are too busy thinking they are in competition with other women and the only status they can scratch out is by trying to achieve superiority over other women in the eyes of men. i guess there are more reasons.

GB - to answer your point no it's not anything fucking like leaving your family of origin and going into therapy and working through the abuse to change because we don't get to move out of patriarchy. if we all moved to a feminist eutopia tomorrow yes it would be like that and we could all heal ourselves of the damage and clear our thinking and purge ourselves of internalised misogyny etc etc etc but as it stands we're still stuck living in the abusive home. HTH with the stunningly obvious.

(the deleted bit was me describing behaviour of a couple of posters so not sure how it was a personal attack but happy to go with mnhq and repost without that paragraph)

I I think it's because they is jealous. they have an inkling that there is something there they can't access because they are too busy trying to gain approval from men, which is always so conditional upon their repeated good behaviour, they can lose it at any time. they are just really irritated that other women are liberated from all that shit so me feel impelled to come onto threads and demand attention

'I I think it's because they is jealous. they have an inkling that there is something there they can't access because they are too busy trying to gain approval from men, which is always so conditional upon their repeated good behaviour, they can lose it at any time. they are just really irritated that other women are liberated from all that shit so me feel impelled to come onto threads and demand attention'

Sisterhood in action eh? You're no better than the rest of us 'unenlightened' women, except you're busy gaining approval from the radical matriarchy. Sisterhood is a myth, no matter what set of core beliefs you subscribe to. You've just illustrated that.

Sisterhood is conditional, always.

'they are too busy trying to gain approval from men, which is always so conditional upon their repeated good behaviour, they can lose it at any time.

I thought that was one of the points we were discussing earlier, in that some observed behaviours appear to be exactly that, and that it is a form of appeasement that should be challenged.
Others felt that it was wrong to question women for behaving in a manner programmed by centuries of conditioning and that change could only happen if the men representing the values of the patriarchy in their attitudes and relationships changed, and if that happened then women would no longer be trying to gain approval from men by using conditioned behaviour.
So one shouldn't challenge or question women for their perceived behaviour, accept that it is a product of living in a patriarchal society?

I haven't had anything useful to say for a while but I have to disagree with the 'sisterhood is conditional' comment.

To some extent, all human relationships are conditional so I don't want to get all metaphysical about it, but I have to say that sisterhood (or feminism as I'd refer to it) is the least conditional of the lot (unless you're a man who likes to exploit women that is). It may judge behaviour as being intrinsically bad for women, etc., but it doesn't judge the woman making that behaviour. That's an important distinction.

I've done things in my life I'm not proud of and I'm just as fallible as the next person, but the sisterhood accepts me warts and all. It does not offer excuses for my bad behaviour but at the same time it helps me see how some things I have done are a direct result of context in which they are performed.

Likewise, only the 'sisterhood' has ever offered me a truly positive view of womanhood. Just as an example, only feminism has provided a view of single parenthood that fits with my own RL experiences, one in which the lone parent has many blessings and her children grow up with significant advantages because of the lone parent status.

When I found feminism I found that I had to stopped apologising just for being female, even though I wasn't aware that this was what I'd been doing up until that point.

On the ground, I have had support from female friends that demonstrates a love that could rival that of a parent to a child.

I have found the sisterhood largely unconditional and a truly beautiful thing that has saved my sanity on more than one occasion.

That is a beautiful and very perceptive post IMO sunshine.

SAF. If you do not accept that therapy is about understanding how one's thoughts & behaviours have been conditioned by external forces; aiming to discover and express one's individual power effectively; learning to move freely in a conditioned society while protecting one's integrity, then you would not see how therapy relates to feminist issues. It might surprise you to hear that most psychotherapy for women involves examination of misogyny and patriarchal structures.

it might surprise you to know that i am a part qualified psychotherapist and am continuing my training from september when i start my MSc - so no i'm talking from an ignorance of what therapy is.

I discuss my 'conclusions' elsewhere, IAOS - I'm not concluded yet!

Feminism does, indeed, help a person sort out many of the above ishoos :)
Like several of the women with whom I discuss my processes, I came to feminism well before therapy. While acknowledging the unfairness of life for women - and achieving changes to make things better - I didn't fully recognise the parallels in my own self & life. This dissonance obviously created psychological tensions and emotional pain.
I'm only talking for myself here, not implying everyone's the same.

well you know i've only done two years of training thus far but haven't come across much of that so far. i was a little shocked by how absent it was tbh from the theory which is predominantly written by middle class white men who don't even do much to avoid the bias' of their times and societies let alone misogyny.

Good luck with your Master's, SAF - or Mistress's Hope all goes well, and that you enjoy your subsequent training.