Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

How funny you should talk about feminism and all your dh can think of is telling you about women he wants to criticise. Maybe he should cut it out.

I guess all the men he works with are perfect and never do anything annoying?

I'm wondering why the way the women talk (breathy little girl voices) matters. If he's not imagining it that is.

Also I've come across loads of men who aren't technical and aren't interested in being so - but they aren't having a whole political movement used to bash them for it.

They are performing their gender like women are supposed to.

Some women find it easier to survive in a destructive patriarchal society by performing what is expected of them. It's a survival tactic in a society that doesn't really value intelligent, educated, independent women.

I'd be interested in why so many women in that one work environment do this. I think you'll find that the level of sexual harassment, sex-based bullying and outright misogyny is pretty high against any woman who deviates from their socially-constructed gender role.

I do get where you're coming from but I try to remember that all women - me included - make our deals with the patriarchy.

That's not to say that we aren't responsible for our own actions, but I try to remember to judge with some humility (I, for example, don't always protest when a man offers to carry something heavy for me that I am perfectly capable of doing for myself) and to have the same willingness to examine my own actions that I am demanding of others.

I'm sorry. I shouldn't have posted or asked. I will ask MN to remove it.

i work in a technical role & i see this differently: society makes it difficult for men to say 'I dont understand [something technical]', sometimes to a farcical level, where they cannot admit they dont have a clue about something.

it is generally more acceptable for women to say 'I dont understand [something technical]' and sometime this is used as an execuse to avoid something new.

i think the different standards applied to women and men do affect how people act at work.

reported

How about engaging with what we've said.

You posted something sexist, on behalf of your husband really. Maybe looking at it from another angle might help you see what is really going on.

I think that your DH has been very unfortunate to come across so many of these people. I think they are quite rare these days.

Yes they do do other women a disservice. But as has already been stated everyone makes their accomodation with the status quo.

They also do themselves a disservice IMO - assumed helplessness is never a good position long term.

i really dont find it offensive to say that some women are a PITA & bad for feminism. dont loads of fem thread say some men are a PITA & bad for feminism?

i dont like the idea we cannot discuss this topic.

Or maybe her husband just sees women in a very sexist way and exaggerates normal behaviour into something else. I don't think I've come across one woman in my life who speaks in a breathy little girl voice. Even Marilyn Monroe only did it for the camera.

i really disagree that its sexist. sexist = different & less favourable treatment on the grounds of sex.

does anyone actually imagine that the OPs DH does not complain about male colleagues doing stereotypcially male behaviour?

the difference could be that this is not recognised as stereotypcially male behaviour but the ommision is not recognising that the men play the other half of the same game.

why would you report this? just because the answers aren't what you expected?

people have answered your questions. thank you would be more appropriate dont you think?

Well the OP has already had that question asked, whether his male colleagues are annoying. But she's decided to have the thread deleted instead.

But it still isn't the same. A man being sexist about a group of women he works with is not the same as complaining about male colleagues. I'd also be really surprised if he is even aware of problematic male behaviour, given his attitude women.

I think the OP was hoping for a bit of women bashing and "women do it to themselves".

She also might not be too comfortable with her husband coming home and telling her about all these women who speak to him in "breathy little girl voices". I know I wouldn't be. There's an undertone of seduction there, whether he's imagining it or not.

Nyac - do you really think someone doesnt complain about their (male) colleagues? maybe you work somewhere very nice .

I think a lot of male bad behaviour at work, which actually relates to thier gender, is normalised to normal bad work behaviour. then women doing the same is 'bad women's behaviour'.

obviously generalising a lot here & think its people working within the patriarchy rather than anything inherently male or female.

Think this is all a bit harsh!
Poor mumwithdice was asking a question as she wanted to explore her own thoughts and views, and asking for other peoples opinions is one way of doing this.
Now she feels that she does not have a space here to question her feelings which I think is wrong,

Don't go OP!!

Fwiw, I sometimes find myself being irritated by other women who behave in ways that I believe to be pandering to the patriachal view of how society wants women to be. Weak, vulnerable, needy.

I don't feel proud of my judgement and want to understand it in a compassionate way, but I do acknowledge I feel it.

I hate simpering girlyness in women, at least as much as I hate patronising know-it-allness in men (and women). Neither is necessary: a person can ask for help without putting on a baby act; a person can offer help without belittling the other. I possibly despise the babygirl thing more because women playing helpless female stereotypes perpetuate the imbalance.

I'm actually quite pleased to hear OP's husband notices it. IME, too many men fall for it. At least Mr mumwithdice has enough respect for female colleagues to know they are not helpless children.

Perhaps he shouldn't look down on them for not knowing how to open a zip file, but I agree the asking for help transaction should be adult-to-adult.

I have worked with some women who are always breathless and girly. When it's not an act, it's still irritating but it's just the way they are.

I think the Op was asking a question because she wanted to discuss it. It's a valid question that deserves a feminist answer. Because, some women do behave this way. Because they don't want to get totally fucked over by the Patriarchy and behaving this way is the way that they deal with the daily grinding down of patriarchal misogyny.

I think the discussion was shut down with the very first response when it could have been a productive discussion about how to navigate the Patriarchy.

I've met women who adopt soft little girly voices all the time. I like big straight forward stentorian womens' voices, and I want to tell them to shut the fuck up and talk properly.

There's nothing positive about the child-woman stereotype.

Should I add this thread to my collection for the next time we have a 'The Feminist board is too scary for people to post on' thread and everyone asks for citations to prove that a naive poster with a simple question gets leapt upon?
To the point where she apologises and backs away?

And yet it is something that seemed to be do ingrained in me until recently. Not the voice, or the helplessness, but the idea that women should be a certain way, should be mindful of their women hood and adjust for it. Was only when I took on a head of department role and started reading more about feminism that I started to understand it. Seeing some strong female role models who were older and more experienced helped give me a template for how to act into a senior position myself. That's why it is so important we promote women in senior positions, so the breathy voiced helpless women can see that there are other, valid, ways of being.

My weird upbringing left me with a very quiet voice. I didn't realise. An employer sent me to a voice coach, who fixed me for good (people who know me fall around laughing when they hear I used to be quiet!) But, if I hadn't gone into sales and had the training, I might have whispered all my life.

It's very hard to get people to pay attention to what you say when they can barely hear you!