Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

So i've been looking through this thread and-
scottishmummy, what do you want to gain from it? I see you only criticizing other users and being negative, how about discussing the feminist issues instead?

Men don't bitch Nyac, they put the world to rights or some other such nonsense

you see,I am discussing feminism.and no I dint have to concur with all
but your summation omits the posts were others agree with me?was that a purposeful omission or just oversight

I've encountered a lot of incredibly unprofessional, sexist, mean spirited and sexual harassing behaviour from men towards myself and other female people in all storts of "professional" settings. It's a problem: It's confes, upsets, distracts, and threatens which leads to a bad climate at work, uneasiness, lower self-confidence, worse work effort.
Most of the time me and the other women have just been stunned by their behaviour and didn't know how to react. Because we expected them to behave like normal people and to treat us with a minimum of respect. You expect others to be civil when you have to work together.
It's a problem, and something must be done about it. The question is what - it's the men who must change their idea that it's ok to pick on their female collegues for being female ie being entitled sexists, and what would make them stop?

*It confuses, upsets etc us

Have been keeping up with thread on and off over the last few days, including the spat yesterday.

Turning a thread onto one poster is a bit naff IMO.

Sounds like middle-class professional men are a problem.

Working-class women soon put men in their place if they try these antics. Ime working-class men and women seem to be far more equal in the work place.

"Working-class women soon put men in their place if they try these antics"

Really? How?
What sort of methods have you used?
The sexist guys I've encountered have been mostly working class but also higher class. They're everwhere.

So many examples, so much mental baggage. I'm beginning to understand.

How very cryptic SF

It's not my experience that working class women in general will, and know, how to handle sexist men trying to dominate us on work. I'd REALLY like to know some methods to handle it.

It's not that cryptic beachcomber. Use your feminist analysis on it.

That's a bit sweeping KeyboardWarrior as you have no idea who we are, where we work or what we do. And nor do you know how we have reacted to being bullied, touched up etc.

It is cryptic SF.

Okay.

It sounded to me like you are saying that the posters here have 'mental baggage' as a result of having been sexually harassed, threatened, assaulted, intimidated or bullied by men in their workplaces.

And that that mental baggage has resulted in us having fucked up views of men. And that explains why we are feminists.

In other words, your comment was a 'gotcha'.

Which is a very unpleasant thing to do to women who are discussing their experiences of sexual bullying and harassment at work.

But I might be wrong - because your comment was slyly cryptic.

I was viciously bullied at a workplace known for institutionalised bullying. I've documented this story on other threads. My male boss & male team-mate used sexism against me, as well as everything else they could dredge up or invent. My predecessor had also been bullied - he walked out of the job and wasn't the first to do it. They didn't use sexism against him but put more effort into finding imaginary faults with his performance.

I don't say this by way of any comparison with others' horrible experiences. I'd like to posit that a bully is a bully and uses whatever weapons seem available to him. The fact that sexism is a weapon is wrong. I agree it should be treated as seriously as racism - so should ageism, imo. But the power of bullies in an organisation derives from a top-down acceptance and practice of bullying. It's an exaggerated expression of patriarchal power structures, which depend on abuse of privilege and graded subservience. When structures are flexible, and where abuse of power isn't tolerated, bullies cannot bully; there's no advantage to it. Where abuse of power isn't tolerated, sexism cannot thrive so well.

KeyboardWarrior - Many people agree with you that sexism is less noticeable (or differently expressed, perhaps) in the working classes. This might be because of relative status. If you imagine our society as a power pyramid (which it is), there are layers of power-holders oppressing those below them. At each level, women fare less well than men in the same layer - there's a sub-strate at the bottom of each layer, containing women.

When you get to the larger and lower layers, there's a great weight of oppression on all the members. This means - to a debatable extent - it's more important for men and women to pull together, so as to hold up as a class against all the levels on top of them. Hence women's greater sense of strength in the lower levels.

However, when push comes to shove, we still find that the men at each level enjoy more rights and privileges relative to the women of the same class.

Beach, could Sanjeev not have been saying the stories told here explain why the tellers are so espoused to feminism? That the stories illustrate the force of sexism against women?

I don't know until he comes back, obv. I just try not assume a defensive position automatically. Benefit of the doubt and all that ... there are feminist men, as you know, though I haven't a clue whether Sanjeev is one of them.

Cardgames - what would make them stop?

Legislation.

I have met many working class men who use sexualized (and other types of) bullying towards their fellow working class women, in order to feel better about themselves I guess. It's like they're thinking "Hey at least I'm not a woman!"

Many men simply don't see us as comrades, but as "the other". And it shouldn't be that way. How are we supposed to work together properly when they think like that? It's like in pubs. People sharing a space in order to have fun/relax...ruined by guys who think it's ok for them to harass the women.

Sort of, a milder version actually. Not a gotcha. We all, each and every one of us, has mental baggage that we bring to the table. My experience has been different to you, and I carry that mental baggage.

Thinking twice about replying to posts before I went out: I do not want to revive the babygirl argument. I do want to point out that several posters have called me a liar - bad manners, surely? Also that, in describing my sketch of a woman's babygirl act as "mockery and derision", someone has just done exactly what the thread argued against: deriding the act. My fictional repairman didn't deride her - he replied respectfully, as most do in such situations. Shame the responding feminist couldn't manage it.

I wrongly attributed that remark to Sanjeev (mental baggage, whatever)

As a man, I am very, very wary of what I post on here. In the last few weeks, I have had my eyes opened to the politics of feminism, and I owe a lot of posters a debt of thanks. I do feel at times that my presence causes agitation, so I am reading this avidly, but trying to contribute minimally.

My particular mindset sees a problem and thinks 'there it is -what do we do/how do we fix it?' (may be to do with my job). Which is maybe not what this particular discussion is about, so after asking a couple of times I decided to pipe down.

I have a 15 year old daughter. She will at some point join the workforce, or go on to further education (her current preference). She is smart, academically bright and very pretty (typical dad bias, but it's true . She will encounter some of the shit described here at some point. I have lead a very sheltered employment experience, so I need to be able to offer her advice - how to deal with situations like those mentioned. If there are no solutions, I am concerned that caveman dad will take over, and that will get me into all sorts of trouble.

Finally, to answer garlic's question, I believe that women should have every single right and choice that men have. I have never felt any other way.

:) ty, Sanjeev.

As you see, you'll get quite a few different perspectives here!! The only belief we share unanimously is that we live in patriarchies, which makes life unfair to women.

Off the top of my head, the most essential things I wish I'd learned earlier are: Knowing my 'boundaries' - what behaviours will I tolerate, in others and in myself? Why? How will I defend my boundaries (rights)?
How to say No and make it clear I mean it.
Belief in my self above all; knowing myself; being responsible to myself.
Never play games unless in a playful situation.
Similar respect for others.
State your goals. Pick your battles.

As long as she knows she's a fantastic as you've described, she's on a firm foundation :)

Thank you, garlic. This is the kind of stuff I am hoping to pick up. And believe me, she knows - she is constantly reminding me!

Make sure that you have an open relationship, so that she will talk with you and your partner freely. That way when things puzzle her, distress her or make her angry, she has people to discuss them with and who can help her make sense of things.