Facebook supports rape?

[MotherPanda]

Have we a thread on this yet?

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/04/facebook-hate-speech-women-rape?newsfeed=true

I am really shocked.

[DontCallMeFrothyDragon]

Theala, that wasn't the point Elliot was making at all.

[SardineQueen]

I just can't believe that you are saying, you are en expert in this field, rapists are like this, this and this, full stop.

What of all the women who have been raped by men who aren't like this, this and this?

They sound pretty easy to spot, so how can it be explained that women keep getting raped? Are they just a bit thick?

[DontCallMeFrothyDragon]

Obviously, SQ, those women haven't been raped then... Well, not in rhubarb's eyes...

[SardineQueen]

Rhubarb you have told me that rapists are like x, y and z, black and white, these are their personality traits. How they behave socially and in private, in very direct terms.

I said that is not true, they are not all like that.

You said you are a forensic psychologist and so you are right.

My opinion is not just an opinion though, it is a fact. Not all rapists are like you describe. How can you even argue that they are? Obviously not everyone who commits a crime will have identical traits motivations etc. It's just obvious.

[bemybebe]

Aye now you are being offensive.

Hmm, I think it is all descending now in a shouting match. Just to bring some perspective of where I am coming from. I was gang raped (including anal penetration) by three ordinary looking men when I was 19. I was also saved by an ordinary looking man when I run to his house for help (clothed but shaken and crying). He gave me tea and then drove me home. I would not be able to point these four people from a crowd because they all looked exactly on the same scale of 'ordinary'. I would not like to ever mix them up though.

My best friend was raped the same very week by a uni mate that spiked her drink. Neither of us reported these crimes and i never told my parents. I had an abortion after that night (this was also my first time to have sex). I was not able to conceive until 20 years later when i mc. Then I gave birth to another baby who died aged 3 weeks. All these events obviously had a profound effect on my life.

I will go away now, because I really do not want to be told that I am "shifting the focus somewhat so that the onus is easily put on women to avoid being alone with these easily identified men". What utter rubbish.

I did not like CE demonizing my loving and carering dh and all other men who are incapable of rape yet lumped with rapists courtesy of CE and the Guardian.

[TheRhubarb]

Right.

Have. I. Told. You. That. Your . Opinion. Does. Not. Count?

I have said that I DID study forensic psychology but am NOT now.
I have NOT said that I am an expert in this field and I do believe I have said that some of my posts were my opinion, based no doubt on what I have learnt.

I have NOT given assumptions about victims of rape.
I have NOT said they were easy to spot - I actually said the opposite.

Clearly my posts are not being read so why should I continue to read snippets of what I have not posted for the benefit of your own argument?

And where did I said END OF?
Where?

[Theala]

SGM, it's what was said in the original article:

What Facebook and others who defend this pernicious hate speech don't seem to get is that rapists don't rape because they're somehow evil or perverted or in any way particularly different from than the average man in the street: rapists rape because they can. Rapists rape because they know the odds are stacked in their favour, because they know the chances are they'll get away with it.

If rapists rape because they can, and they are not any way different from than the average man in the street, the implication is that the average man in the street who hasn't raped anyone, has not done so because he can't, i.e. because he has never had the opportunity.

That's where the weakness lies in CE's article.

[KRITIQ]

Jamma, just a quick query related to your post of Wed 05-Oct-11 13:34:08 -

You cited evidence showing that "stranger rapists" (the least common types,) demonstrate a range of identifiable characteristics that can be used to mark out those with a propensity to rape and/or are likely to have raped.

You also say, "even with aquaintence rapists, there is evidence that the offenders (generally) exhibit traits that not easily associated with (sigh) average men in the street."

What would be interesting is to have a list of the traits that "acquaintance rapists" exhibit and see how these stack up against characteristics that are considered within the "normal" range for men. Is there any way you can provide these?

Thanks.

[DontCallMeFrothyDragon]

Yes, rapists rape becuse they can. Not the average man.

All rapists are (or have the potential to be) the average man.

Not all Average Men are rapists.

You're confusing what CE has said. It's the old "if every x is y, does that mean every y is also x?" argument.

[SardineQueen]

Rhubrarb you have not addressed the points in my posts at all.

You said these things

"Rapists do not rape because they can. They rape because they are socially disfunctional (does that sit better?) and cannot perform unless they feel in control and powerful. "

"I didn't just mean in the bedroom SQ - I meant in life. Rapists dominate women and use them to satisfy their own needs. Therefore in life rapists are usually social wankers who like to feel powerful."

"Rapists are social wankers who usually take advantage of other situations. "

And when I asked where you got them from you said you had studied forensic psychology. There is no room that I can see in those statements for other sorts of people, it is all very black and white. Where does it leave people who are raped by people who are not as described in the above quotes? High and dry is where it leaves them.

[TheRhubarb]

Theala and others who are debating this - well done. I agree completely. Shame that is lost in the picking apart of my particular posts.

Once more, I am NOT a forensic psychologist, I STUDIED it as part of my degree years ago. If you read my posts you might not be so quick to jump to conclusions.

I'll piss off anyway because I get the impression that it is easier to pick apart what I am posting rather than answer the very pertinent points put across by Theala, bemybebe and others. Which is perhaps why they are doing it, because their argument is flawed.

[Theala]

I'm very close to conceeding that you're right, Dont, except that the " or in any way particularly different from than the average man in the street" bit still jars with me.

[SardineQueen]

"Well I could shout about my own feelings right now, but this thread appears to be dominated by how everyone feels which is getting in the way of the debate, such as it is. How easy it is to pick apart a post instead of arguing a logical debate."

So because I feel upset I am being illogical?

I asked you if you could see why I had read your posts in the way I had and you didn't respond. You have repeatedly posted "rapists are like this" and listed quite spottable traits and ignored over and over again the fact that women who have been raped my men who are not like you describe might take issue with your ideas. Sorry not your ideas, the proven facts of a forensic psychologist.

[SardineQueen]

Rhubarb would you consider apologising or at least retracting your quotes that you made earlier? They are really problematical, and if you didn't mean them it would be much better if you said so than just flouncing off.

[TheRhubarb]

SQ - It is what I was taught on my course. If you google psychological rapist profile you will find similar answers. However stranger rapes are very different to marital rapes and drunk rapes different to violent rapes.

Yet with all criminals they do tend to have certain characteristics that are not generally noticeable by everyone but nonetheless are there.

I hope that answers your point.

[TheRhubarb]

Oh and I did apologise for saying anything which upset you.

[DontCallMeFrothyDragon]

Sooooo... What you're saying at 14:07, rhubarb, is that it's gthe victim's fault for not noticing these characteristics.

[SardineQueen]

So WHY did you say "rapists are like this" when you were talking about stranger rapists who you learnt about on a course some years ago?

Why not be upfront that you were only talking about a certain cohort and your knowledge may be out of date?

And why do you still, even when trying to look as if you are being mollifying, add in "Yet with all criminals they do tend to have certain characteristics that are not generally noticeable by everyone but nonetheless are there. " which amount to you saying "I AM RIGHT" and still leaves a hint that the men are all as you say after all?

[KRITIQ]

Can I just add to the mix that my DH doesn't feel personally affronted by the idea that ordinary guys who look like him, do jobs like him, have hobbies like him, live in the same city as him, etc. can be rapists.

I'm a visibly white person. I don't get my panties in a bunch if someone says that white people are racist. I don't insist that all their arguments about racism are invalid because their words might implicate that a decent white person like me might be racist. Even if I'm not racist, I feel I still have the responsibility to challenge racist words and behaviours in other white people. By ignoring comments or laughing at racist jokes, surely I am enabling others to carry on with racist words and behaviour with impunity.

Shouldn't the same apply to men with regard to sexism, rape and violence against women in general?

[SardineQueen]

Like this

"Yet with all criminals they do tend to have certain characteristics that are not generally noticeable by everyone but nonetheless are there"

Do they?

Does someone who murders a policeman share traits with someone who steals to fund a drug habit and share traits with someone who uses a mobile phone while driving and share traits with someone who takes an ecstacy tablet at the weekend and share traits with someone who evades their tax????