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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Facebook supports rape?

908 replies

MotherPanda · 04/10/2011 13:53

Have we a thread on this yet?

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/04/facebook-hate-speech-women-rape?newsfeed=true

I am really shocked.

OP posts:
StewieGriffinsMom · 05/10/2011 11:46

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KRITIQ · 05/10/2011 11:50

What in the name of peace does "mentally not all there" mean then? You've pulled rank as a copywriter, presumably with advance knowledge of the English language, but then use a dubious phrase like that?

When I was growing up, "mentally not all there" meant someone with what we might now call "learning difficulties." If that is what you mean, you are on just as much of a sticky wicket.

TheRhubarb · 05/10/2011 11:54

I have suffered mental illness so when you mis-quoted me, can you understand why I got so angry? A mental illness is just that, an illness.
When I say mentally not all there I mean in terms of morality, of compassion, of decency. Sure they have made a choice to rape - but in arguing against the sentence in question, what makes them so different to the man in the street is that they have no moral compass. They don't care about feelings of other people. So mentally, that compassion and that decency is missing.

I would never ever say that they were mentally ill. An illness is not brought about through lack of guidance, or being bullied as a child, a mental illness can happen to anyone.

BertieBotts · 05/10/2011 11:54

There was a study a while ago, linked on here, where they asked a large number of men "Have you ever raped anyone?" and they almost all answered, horrified, "Of course not!" but then when faced with a series of questions which outlined acts which are clearly rape, many many of them responded that, yes, they had done these things.

I do not agree that this is in any way a defence, but it does seem similar to the abusive husband who insists that any man who would hit a woman is scum but doesn't recognise that in pushing his wife around, pinching her, hitting her "jokingly" in places other than the face, raping her, verbally abusing her, etc etc, he is in fact exactly the same as "those men". It's like a form of cognitive dissonance. It's their own skewed perception of what "rape" is or what "abuse" is, ie, fitting into a tiny little box, so alleyway rape or man punching wife in the face or whatever, and everything else is (in their world) some kind of "grey area".

TheRhubarb · 05/10/2011 11:55

KRITIQ, when you were growing up? Yeah well when I was growing up my brother was referred to as a spastic and mentally handicapped. Both terms now redundant.

I think I have explained what I mean. Would you mind explaining what you mean when you defend the writer of that sentence and how you could read it so differently to the clear way in which it is written?

jamma111 · 05/10/2011 12:00

What Facebook and others who defend this pernicious hate speech don't seem to get is that rapists don't rape because they're somehow evil or perverted or in any way particularly different from than the average man in the street:

But there is the core problem.

Rapists are different to the average man in the street. Because they are rapists. If they aren't different in any way then, qed - all men are rapists (who just presumerably haven't quite got around to doing it yet).

Indeed Cath Elliot provides a criteria for determining the difference betwen the rapist and the average man in the street; the rapists rape because they know the odds are stacked in their favour, because they know the chances are they'll get away with it. That's it, the only difference. Others might (and with some justification) quote criminology journal papers in support of statistics about the mental state of rapists, their attitudes to women and children, their past sexual or physical abuse, exposure to pornography...but nope, Cath Elliott skipped all those concerns and went straight for the rapists rape because they know the odds are stacked in their favour, because they know the chances are they'll get away with it. All those academic works and studies apparently rendered useless.

Try as I might I can't put any other 'spin' on Cath's work.

And as for I'm appalled that you suggest that Elliot might have a "deeply-held personal belief" that all men are rapist. What tripe.

Well that suggestion comes only from her written work;

rapists don't rape because they're somehow evil or perverted or in any way particularly different from than the average man in the street

Notice the any way? That removes the opportunity for compromise. any way is well any way. Rapists aren't in any way particularly different from than the average man in the street. We're not talking about how they look or behave, we are talking about any way.

Now I might be going down the wrong line here but I actually believe it is possible to distinquish a rapist from the average man in the street. I believe that through the identification of social and cultural influences (including access to pornography), psychometric testing and family and social history, it is possible to differentiate the rapist or potential rapist from the average man in the street. And that's why I object to the simplistic in any way particularly different from than the average man in the street. It isn't just issuing a generalistic insult to the male adult population, it's also insulting the hard work performed by criminologists and psychiatrists (amongst them those who would identify themselves as feminists).

The passage doesn't really need manipulating. Reading it exactly as is is quite sufficient;

rapists don't rape because they're somehow evil or perverted or in any way particularly different from than the average man in the street

If only she had written rapists don't rape because they're somehow evil or perverted but because they are different from the average man in the street.

StewieGriffinsMom · 05/10/2011 12:01

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StewieGriffinsMom · 05/10/2011 12:03

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bemybebe · 05/10/2011 12:04

SGM -so "rapists rape because they can" argument sits well with you? So then it just takes a combination of perfect conditions to set off "the average man in the street" to rape? Whatever next...

This thread as well as the comments on the Guardian page show that it takes just one stupid paragraph to derail a very worthwhile argument against Facebook pro-rape shite.

As for my support of FB - I do not use them any more. In fact, I deleted my account because I do not want to be associated in any way with a site that bans breastfeeding mums' photos, whilst allowing pro-rape stuff run uninterrupted... vile.

StewieGriffinsMom · 05/10/2011 12:06

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bemybebe · 05/10/2011 12:08

what is a straw man argument?

AmorYCohetes · 05/10/2011 12:08

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bemybebe · 05/10/2011 12:09

So, i should always be on the guard with my dh? Because if I let him loose he may rape someone, you think?

bemybebe · 05/10/2011 12:10

"what is a straw man argument?" Ok, I looked it up. I do not think so.

TheRhubarb · 05/10/2011 12:12

Rapists do not rape because they can. They rape because they are socially disfunctional (does that sit better?) and cannot perform unless they feel in control and powerful.

The majority of men do not fall under this and it is extremely offensive to presume otherwise. Funny how saying that someone is mentally not all there is offensive, but saying that rapists are no different to other men and rape purely because they can is absolutely fine.

I think we can all safely say that we are completely 100% opposed to rape and find rapists repulsive bastards. We all agree that Facebook is shameless and without any moral guidelines or responsibilities. What we are differing on is one woman's meaning in one paragraph of an otherwise good article.

If she is writing for The Guardian she really ought to be able to avoid such confusion. I am presuming that she doesn't really think that men rape purely because they can or that rapists are no different to any other men. Presuming or hoping?

KRITIQ · 05/10/2011 12:13

I grew up in the 60's and 70's. "Mentally not all there" was a polite term that was used to describe learning disabilities, alongside more offensive slurs.

You say that in your definition, it means people "lacking in morality, compassion and decency." However, I don't see these qualities as linked to mental functioning at all. All three are related to value judgements, not mental capacity, and all are highly subjective. Compassion, morality and decency mean different things to different people. They are not absolute concepts.

The point is though, as Bertie's post illustrates, many of the men who carry out acts that meet the legal definition of rape see themselves as moral, compassionate and decent people. We see this in the way rape cases are reported in the media, discussions around the water coolers at work and the school gates and in internet forums. Apologies and excuses for acts that meet the legal definition of rape abound. That is evidence of a "rape culture," whether we like that term or not.

There are loads of studies about attitudes to sexual abuse, like the one Bertie Botts cites, which continue to show that like it or not, there are alot of men and boys out there who would force a woman (or other man) to have sex against their will if they thought they could get away with it. Odds are that they probably will get away with it.

That doesn't mean by a long chalk that all men are rapists. That just means that men who choose to rape can probably do this with impunity by convincing themselves and others that what they are doing isn't wrong. Imho, they are aided and abetted in their actions by the sexist jokes, anecdotes, sexist media portrayals, images in porn, automatic pity for the accused, victim blaming beliefs and righteous indignation of the wronged males.

StewieGriffinsMom · 05/10/2011 12:14

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bemybebe · 05/10/2011 12:15

"I am presuming that she doesn't really think that men rape purely because they can or that rapists are no different to any other men. "

Rhubarb, well judging by the way some posters here jump to her dfence, this interpretation is exactly what they think.

TheRhubarb · 05/10/2011 12:16

Amor, I'll just ask my dh how he feels about being compared to a rapist shall I? I wonder how you would feel if you were compared to an abuser? Would you think that everyone had the right to ignore your feelings because the abused are more important?

StewieGriffinsMom · 05/10/2011 12:16

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AmorYCohetes · 05/10/2011 12:22

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AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen · 05/10/2011 12:23

This article helped me clarify my thoughts on this argument

Rhubarb, you seem to have bought into the bogeyman rapist myth. Many (?most) rapists are rapists because they don't respect boundaries and think (rightly) that they can get away with it. They get away with it because lots of people think that rapists do not look or act like your average bloke on the street. 'Cept they do, because the vast majority of them are.

TheRhubarb · 05/10/2011 12:24

Morality is not just a concept - even primates have a sense of morality.

Yes the media, the availablity of hard corn porn, sexism etc does make the justfication of rape easier. The woman is perceived as an object so her feelings or rights are not as important as the rights perceived as his by the rapist.

However I am not disagreeing with the wrongness of rape, I am disagreeing with Elliot's definition that rapists rape because they can - no they don't they rape because they see women as objects and unimportant. Every man is physically capable of rape, just as every woman is capable of shoplifting. Chances are we would get away with it, but we don't do it because we know it is wrong.
Rapists don't rape because they are evil or perverted - fair enough. SOME don't, others do.
..or because they are in any way different to the man on the street. They ARE different. Just like the shoplifter is different to you.

bemybebe · 05/10/2011 12:27

"rapists are rapists because they don't respect boundaries"
Absolutely agree. But then "the average man in the street" does respect the boundaries, I think. It seems that I am in the minority here.

StewieGriffinsMom · 05/10/2011 12:29

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