Facebook supports rape?

[MotherPanda]

Have we a thread on this yet?

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/04/facebook-hate-speech-women-rape?newsfeed=true

I am really shocked.

I am beyond puzzled about this.

I don't see those quotes as personal attacks. It's an attack on an argument, isn't it?

I really think people need to sort out what is an attack on an argument, and what is an attack on a person.

And if someone has made a personal attack on you, report it to MN and it will be deleted.

EllaDee - I honestly haven't the foggiest who you are or what you're on about.

After the whole ludicrous Dittany debacle, I made a resolution never to engage with or about her again. And haven't. So whatever you are imagining, it is just that, all in your head.

hully - I'm fine, but I am confused. Come on - you cannot pretend you didn't make comments you did. I think it's not on to claim you don't get personal about other posters when you do, and have been called on it many times. I know you feel your attacks on Dittany were some kind of righteous crusade, but denying you ever made any comments is just plain strange.

I'm really confused and not a little freaked out by it. I don't understand what you think you're doing here. It's not helping anyone as far as I can see.

My point was that rapists do not necessarily fit the criteria above at all and it is wrong and dangerous to say that they do and potentially upsetting for lots of women.

I have been apologised to for upsetting me. I think that someone who hazards guesses as to the history of another poster should apologise. The original comments still stand though and have not been retracted or anything.

I can't say "I disagree with your points about rapists all being like x, y and z" because it is simply untrue. You can't debate something that is just out and out wrong and likely to cause upset to people reading.

You know, it's not about direct personal attacks though. If you have one poster, really trying hard to explain what they mean and lots of others are all hammering back, quite without kindness, it feels very much like one is under siege.

OK .... I'm still confused but if you say it's all in my head and not in black and white on threads where we can all see it, nothing much I can see will change your mind, will it?

lenin - sorry, I did derail I know, but I didn't mean to. I just meant to call hully on her post, which I thought and still think was not honest. I'll leave it now.

Thee are personal attacks and saying thee aren't is a falsehood and doesn't make it so actually.

Now, whether rhubarb did or did not apoligise for this that or the other does not excuse the fact that frothy and others have not apologised at all

it is not the case that one begetts the other, we should all be reponsible for our own behaviour. It is (in my view) child like to suggest that one person shouldn't apologise becuase another one didn't. you are responsible for your behaviour. if you think your behaviour has wrong, address it or stand by it.

I also think that this derails the issue somewhat of the whole thread being rhubarb centred, and the delivery of that was not very nice.

Hully, don't accuse EllaDee of lying please. The rest of us are capable of reading.

EllaDee - I'm really sorry but I don't know what you're on about.

Moving on.

What I took from Rhubarbs' posts was the idea that if you rape, you set yourself outside the (ideal) norm, because a decent person doesn't. Much as there is the interesting debate about what constitutes madness, is a killer automatically insane etc.

This is of course totally separate from the fact that there is nothing de facto different about rapists.

it all seemed to get unnecessarily confused and unpleasant.

You know hully, people are very kind on here, if people ar kind to them.

But no-one is obliged to be kind to people who aren't kind to them.

Was Rhubarb kind?

DontCall Me - reading what? Have I really got to defend myself from writing posts that I didn't?

Really?

Wow.

*(Tht's a genuine question btw, I haven't read the first bit of the thread as it's too long and I can't be arsed to go back and do so. Am slightly weary and puzzled by this)

Uppity - I think she started off kind, tryiong to express herslef and feel her way through what she was trying to say. And then got so heated and confused by feeling misunderstood and trying to answer lots of posters at once that it all went quite off the rails.

can i reiterate that we should be absolutely clear about the seperation of

point of view and opinion

and

the delivery of that point of view or opinion

Of course different povs are wonderful, informative and educational, they make me think, research, laugh and cry... if delivered correctly. if not they can be seen in an unkind light.

it is the absolute method in which the argument was delivered which is crucial.

Lenin - I don't know what you mean either.

Look, I'll stay off these boards, it'll be simpler. I'll have the discussions elsewhere.

elladee, how can you measure the absent? if people aren;t posting here. please do not reduce my first measured post to a sweary insult.

I don't understand anything any more.

As I said, I'll stay off here, it never goes well!

I'll try and have the discussions elsewhere instead and see how that goes.

Yes, there is a massive doublethink in our culture about rapists; on the one hand, they are supposed to be these awful monsters and yet otoh you can go on FB and set up sites that are only half-ironic.

Some of the people posting on those sites are going to be rapists, aren't they? Almost certainly. And they are in a public site, supported by advertisers, used by employers, companies, individuals, boasting about how funny it is that they either rape women or think it would be OK to do so.

And in a country where we have a 1 in 4 chance of being raped or sexually assualted, with practically no chance whatsoever of our attackers being brought to justice for it, we are supposed to simper and smile and not be humourless feminists and find it OK that that FB page exists. And then people tell us that the rape culture is a hysterical invention of our own fevered imaginations.

Although I think it backfired to some extent because there are loads of feminists there posting on it now from waht I understand, getting real information out there.

Hully, no. Carry on reading here. May I suggest that you do a read of the stories posted by the survivors on here. Hell, you can use my name if you want. The experts can only post effectively if they truly understand what the victim has been through, IMO. I'm not trying to discredit anyone, but until empathy is practised, a lot of people run the risk of upsetting a lot of victims. And no, I don't mean the feminists. In fact, I owe a lot to the feminists, such as SGM, Lenin, Dittany, LRD and many more who've helped me come to terms with my own ordeal more than the likes of Women's Aid did. For all the discrediting the FS gets, people seem to miss the way that a lot of people genuinely are helped. It was only through posts from the feminists that I managed to start seeing that what two of my exes put me through wasn't my fault. How can posters keep discrediting the FS, when there's so many more people out there this section has helped?