Facebook supports rape?

[MotherPanda]

Have we a thread on this yet?

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/04/facebook-hate-speech-women-rape?newsfeed=true

I am really shocked.

Rhubarb - so when does a person become a rapist?

So it is wrong to say that only men with a pre-disposition to rape will actually rape and that men with no pre-disposition to rape will not rape?
Why would any man rape if he had no inclination towards it? In what circumstances would a man who has been conditioned to respect and see women as human beings and doesn't think himself entitled to have sex with a woman who says no to him rape?

Oh excuse me Dont, oh how very silly of me, I mixed up radical with extremists - naughty me!

Don't you see how your picking apart of every single thing I type, relevant or not, is just diluting your own arguments and illustrates how you are merely using this thread now to justify your own rather vile attack on one poster.

No matter where the thread turns, you are there ready to roll out the accusations and have a go. No matter who agrees with who or what point is made you seem to concentrate only on being as obnoxious as you can towards me. Even when I have left the subject of your insults to me, you bring them up time and again.

Is this a typical day for you?

Why do some people treat men with so little respect? It is mind-boggling. It is ridiculous to pretend that men cannot be expected to differentiate themselves from rapists, so instead women must search out non-existant 'tells'. I can't believe this rubbish is being peddled by anyone who claims to like men. If you really liked and respected men, you would know that no decent man is offended the things Cath Eliott said.

People haven't said there is no difference between a rapist and an average man, they have said there is very little difference in their attitudes. Surely it's not hard to spot the difference?

You'er the only one who has said that men can be rapists without ever having raped anyone Rhubarb, just by having an attitude of entitlment. You don't really mean that do you, have I read that wrong?

I don't appreciate "radical feminists" being dismissed as "extremists". Because that's not the case. And you are discrediting a large section of feminists by using that claim.

And behave. I haven't dragged up the insults again.

Have another

JV - are you asking for my opinion? Because it is just that let me warn you, an opinion which is not based on statistics and which might be right or might be wrong, but which is not offensive or presumptious or racist or sexist or uneducated. And if it is read that way then I apologise because it certainly is not typed that way. Perhaps I should have that disclaimer over everything I write from now on?

I suppose logically he is a rapist when he rapes. But I would say personally speaking that he is a rapist when he intends to commit the act. So if a drug is put into a drink but the woman rescued - he is no less a rapist than if he went through with the act, which is what he intended.

You will say, but what of those who do not plan to rape? This is where respect for women comes into it. If he believes he is intrinsically entitled to sex then he may become an opportunistic rapist.

Is that sidestepping the issue? I don't know then!

And I think that is key to what we mean by Rape Culture, isn't it, Uppity? That is why it is important to speak out about things like that facebook page.

wamster, the examples that have been given were about ordinary men without any disposition to rape. And following your argument, Uppity, as someone tempted to wake her lover up sexually, would have been dispositioned to assault. What the men did was wrong and was rape but the reason wasn't because they were dispositioned to do it, it was because they didn't think of it as rape.

Uppity - I do not believe the average man thinks he is entitled to sex whenever he likes.
That is the big difference. Perhaps Elliot does.
I think that most men know the difference between consenual sex and non-consensual sex and that most would never dream of having the latter.

Ella - why not invite some male Mumsnetters over and see what they say?

Dont, I'm full thanks.

I believe that if a man thinks he is "intrinsically entitled to sex", and may become an "opportunistic rapist", as you say, Rhubarb, then surely we are back to the contentious line in the article we are discussing, aren't we? A rapist rapes because he can.

Talking of male mumsnetters, where is Pan?

Thank you, AmorY

Nobody is saying that the average man thinks he is entitled to sex "whenever he likes".

You've either misunderstood what people are saying Rhubarb, or you're just being careless about how you present what people are saying. You can't really have an honest discussion with someone unless you really try and understand what they're saying. If it's more important for you to win the rgumenet than to get to the bottom of what people are saying, then that is really sad and quite boring.

Have you looked at the Ray Wyre link? Entitlement isn't about thinking you can have sex "whenever you like" not even the most extreme rapist would think that.

Oh and I deliberately used the term extreme feminist rather than radical, because radical means getting to the root of something (just to clarify a mini row of a few posts back - it's hard to keep up)

Am I still Amor? Really?
Wow.

Last post on there was about 1pm I think.

And I have every right to go onto another thread for support.
I am leaving to pick up my son now. If your entire arguments centres on just picking on my arguments then that's a bit low, even by your standards.
Read back through the thread. My posts have been picked apart, my character torn apart and the valid points made have been lost. I have tried to engage in a stimulating debate but you obviously just want one thing - to get me off the thread and discredit me.

You may not agree with me, but I have tried to reason with you and engage with you. Now I realise how pointless it is and how much of my day I have wasted.

Let it go ffs. You are sounding pathetic.

Thank you for clarifying, Uppity. The rest of us knew what you meant. :)

Goodness rhubarb your posts are bieng picked apart because that's what the feminist section is for isn't it? Examining our dearly held attitudes and debunking them.

You seem to have some kind of belief that people are arguing with you just fro the sake of it, rather than arguing with your arguments, IYSWIM.

I think some of your arguments are good (the entitlement stuff) ad some are bad (the determination to categorise rapists off into the "other" corner, as if they arn't the product of our society)

Well, I can't disagree with that, LeninGrad, but in what circumstances does a man who is conditioned to respect women and their bodies as being separate sentient beings (truly conditioned so that it is part of his belief system) commit rape?
Doesn't the pre-disposition have to be part of them just waiting to be sparked off by outside influences that reinforces his belief that women are lesser beings to be abused if the circumstances are right?

Because that's all I was trying to say with my (clumsy) analogy.

Rhubarb, you have been disagreed with, that's all. I think you are taking this too personally. And I don't really understand why you got so very angry, because it seems to me that we have come full circle and that if you look at what the article said, without making the knee-jerk assumption that all men were being characterised as rapists, then there is actually little to disagree with in it. You recognise that there is an attitude of entitlement which some men have which could lead them to rape, even though they might not call themselves a rapist.

The only difference I can see is that you believe they know themselves to have crossed a line, but many other posters are trying to point out that our entire culture is steeped in rape myths and male entitlement to the point where many men who rape DON'T think what they have done is wrong.

Was it Naomi Wolf (I may have that wrong) who talked about women's experience of date rape as sometimes just a "bad Saturday night"? Whoever it was was rightly vilified, but it does point to the prevalence of rape, and the ability of many people to minimise it.

By 'pre-disposition' I mean pre-disposed as a result of upbringing and family environment rather than an innate thing at birth.

Rhubarb - I asked because i think its at the root of your whole argument. I'm trying to understand what your argument really is and I honestly cant.

I wonder if you have just become determined to hold onto your position (and i can understand why that might be) despite actually agreeing with the details which make up the opposing argument.