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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Facebook supports rape?

908 replies

MotherPanda · 04/10/2011 13:53

Have we a thread on this yet?

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/04/facebook-hate-speech-women-rape?newsfeed=true

I am really shocked.

OP posts:
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 06/10/2011 15:22

LeBOF - I would take it personally if what I said was misinterpreted, and as a result of that, I was told that I didn't believe rape victims or that I blamed them for being raped.

LeninGrad · 06/10/2011 15:22

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LeBOF · 06/10/2011 15:31

SDTG- I guess the flip side to that though is that people who have been raped or know others well who have, will get annoyed or upset in a way which is personal to them, when somebody tries to argue that rapists are always "other" and should therefore be easy to spot and avoid. It feels very minimising.

I think there could have been a more constructive discussion if Rhubarb had been prepared to concede the point earlier that many rapists do not fit the stereotype of evil brutes.

wamster · 06/10/2011 15:35

Well, they're obviously not easy to spot and avoid! They do look and act like most other men. Isn't this a given? Confused
But they are different because for some reason they have not been taught (or if taught, have not made it part of their belief system) that women are separate, sentient human beings worthy of respect and that no means 'no'.

Uppity · 06/10/2011 15:35

Hmm, I think it's a bit dodgy to talk about men being "predisposed" to rape by their upbringing and family environment.

All of us are capable of learning and growing as people and going beyond our upbringing and family environment. Thousands of people have really dysfunctional, abusive parents and go on to become good parents becuase they learn and rid themselves of the deeply held assumptions their childhoods taught them. I think men are perfectly capable of throwing off the assumptions of their upbringing and family environment. So if their fathers were misogynists and their mothers were handmaidens, they can still learn how to view women as full equal human beings and to respect them as such. If you don't believe that, you don't believe in the capacity of human beings to learn and heal.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 06/10/2011 15:35

But Rhubarb hasn't said that rapists should be easy to spot and avoid - she's said the opposite to that at least once on this thread. She did say that rapists are different to other men - other people said that that meant she is blaming rape victims for being raped - and then tore her apart for it. That's unfair and wrong. She has never said that rapists are all evil brutes either - unless I missed her post where she said that.

People have, for understandable reasons, read things into her posts that she has said very clearly, over and over, were never in her mind - and then they have ripped her to shreds for that. I'm sorry but that sickens me.

StewieGriffinsMom · 06/10/2011 15:37

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TheRhubarb · 06/10/2011 15:38

Actually I am not being paranoid. You have Dont and Amor congratulating each other every time one of them has a go. Then smilies at others who correct my points and applauds. Also the continous repeat of the fact that I alluded to this thread on another and the repeated accusations that I am a rape apologiser (because yes, saying I blame rape victims and don't believe them is saying I am worse than a rape apologist).

Would any of you be happy to be called those things and not even have an apology - but instead a repetition. Would you be happy to not take that personally?

JV and Uppity. I will gladly engage in such a debate but I feel my presence on this thread is not conducive to such a debate.

JV I have agreed with many posters here even, surprisingly enough, those who have so vocally disagreed with me. If you want to start another thread then I will explain my opinions and debate with you as I have quite a lot of time for you and your opinions.

But today I have given enough time to these people. My children are home from school, I have work to finish and I am going to do that.

StewieGriffinsMom · 06/10/2011 15:38

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StewieGriffinsMom · 06/10/2011 15:40

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TheRhubarb · 06/10/2011 15:40

Thank you again SDTG - LeBOF I have, lots of times, read my earlier posts.

TheRhubarb · 06/10/2011 15:41

Lies! Ha! So it's fine to abuse me but the only lie I have told is what?

Right, I'm off. It's clear that SGM and Dont have just one agenda and it's a shame.

LeBOF · 06/10/2011 15:43

I am not using evil brutes as a direct quote- sorry if that wasn't clear. But I think it's important to tease out the implications in these arguments: it is too easy for people to believe that rapists are the monstrous Other, and not actually people who might be our friends or relatives. I think that the discussion should have focussed on the culture we inhabit which facilitates male entitlement and minimises women's personhood.

wamster · 06/10/2011 15:43

Uppity. I do believe strongly that if a man is brought up in an environment where he watches his mother being hit and abused and that this abuse goes unchallenged by others- through ignorance or not caring about he woman- is going to believe that that behaviour is acceptable and if he is brought up by loving parents where respect and concern for other people are shown and that everybody -man or woman- is seen as being sentient beings to be valued, he is likely to carry the attitude that women are lesser beings into adulthood.

I'm not saying that this is the only reason men rape, but I do believe it is one of them.
He can change-as all of us can- but, by goodness, it takes a lot of work plus he has to realise his views are wrong in the first place in order to get help.

Uppity · 06/10/2011 15:44

Actually Wamster I understand your post now about rapists being predisposed like a virus, I thought you were being mad previously. Grin It was the virus talk that caught me out...

I think I see what you mean in that you mean being predisposed by hteir bad family background and the lessons about entitlement which they may have learned form their family/ environment. So if they don't have that feeling of entitlement, then they won't rape, even if the opportunity presents itself, because they're not rapists, is that what you mean?

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 06/10/2011 15:44

No one has clled you a rape apologist.

I think it's quite telling that at least two of the people who have been outspoken against you are rape survivors. Surely that suggests that maybethe things you are saying are damaging?

I'd rather not get into a bunfight. I just think you may learn more from the survivors than you do from text books.

StewieGriffinsMom · 06/10/2011 15:45

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DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 06/10/2011 15:46
wamster · 06/10/2011 15:47

Yeah, that's what I meant, people. Clumsy analogy perhaps.

AmorYCohetes · 06/10/2011 15:54

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wamster · 06/10/2011 15:58

It's like some women have been chatting up a guy all night, they get smoochy with him, end up in bed with him, things progress to more intimacy and they change their mind about wanting sex. Well, some guys do accept and respect their right to say no and don't rape them.
All the conditions may be present for them to rape and, sadly, get away with it owing to societal attitudes like shit like: 'well she was in bed with him' (boak). But they don't do it. I can only conclude it is because they respect other people's right to say no and don't feel that they are entitled to do what they want with other people against that other person's will.

TheRhubarb · 06/10/2011 15:59

My apologies Amor, I meant Dont who grinned every time you contradicted me along with SGM.

I have not dismissed your experiences, I have not told you that you believe all men to be rapists. I apologise if you think I have.

When you feel victimised as I do, and upset at being accused of vile things, I admit that fury gets in the way. Which is why I am no longer in a position to debate. I do not believe that being a survivor of rape gives you the right to verbally abuse someone else. I agree Amor that you have not done this.

I apologise sincerely as I do not want you to feel as upset as I do right now. I hope you will accept my apology.

StewieGriffinsMom · 06/10/2011 15:59

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KRITIQ · 06/10/2011 16:02

Wamster, evidence of "intergenerational transmission of violence" is inconclusive. It is seductive to believe that violence breeds violence, but the facts don't back it up. I think folks perhaps want to believe that rapists and abusers come from "bad backgrounds," because that just gives another excuse for "othering" people with "bad backgrounds."

Rhubarb, having just come back to this thread, it does seem that you are taking challenges to your posts, disagreements with your views and requests for information to back up your assertions as personal attacks. They are not. I don't tend to wander far from this room, but in most discussion boards, it is considered very bad form to start new threads or hijack unrelated ones to whine about what's happening elsewhere.

As far as the original point of the thread, hopefully the idea that we need to be focussing on criminal profiling techniques as the key to preventing rapes has now been put aside. The real issue is ensuring that all men recognise and respect women's (and other men's) boundaries and are accountable for their behaviour. Some of that is about early prevention - ensuring boys and girls are instilled with self-respect and respect for others and challenging the views of those who already see men-are-entitled-to-sex-from-women as the default position.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 06/10/2011 16:03

Where the hell have I verbally abused you, rhubarb?

Well? Please fucking point it out before I blow a fuse

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