SUPPORT THREAD Specifically for New Mums with "clingy" babies.

[PukeyRag]

(Sorry to use the word clingy, only one I could think of!)

So, there are so many threads on a daily basis with the same question -
"How do I get my DC to sleep on his/her own?"
New mums everywhere find that their DC will only sleep on them, and if they put them down, they'll only stay down for 10-15 mins or so, which is a nightmare, especially for those with babies who do the same at night, and makes you feel like punching the people who say "oh well, you should sleep when baby sleeps!"

This thread is to offer advice and support, techniques that have worked for others, and also for people to have a bit of a moan!

I hope more experienced mums will post the things that helped them, to help others.

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The Reason - ALL babies feel the need to be close to their caregiver, especially in the first few months of their life. It's not natural for them to sleep alone, as they don't yet realise that they're safe.
Their tiny bodies are experiencing so many new and strange things - sounds, sensations, feelings - they need you to be there every step of the way, and they don't care if you're tired to the point of seeing double, all they care about is being full and feeling your warmth and heart beat, which allows them to be calm and sleep soundly.
Bottom line is, we may be used to the modern world, but babies are not!

The Solution - In all brutal honesty, the only solution to this is time, but how do you get past this point of sleep deprivation/not getting things done?

Please read next post for my advice.

[fififrog]

Haven't been on this thread for a while as I feel a bit of an impostor now! Not that I'm not sleep deprived, because I am but DD is now quite happy napping lying on my bed after shushing and gently jiggling her from side to aide with my hand. so I can nap too, read, catch up on email even do a few chores. And she goes to sleep at night in our arms but we only hold her for a few minutes before putting her in the cot, and after feeding in the night if she wakes when I put her down I pretty much ignore her and she's back to sleep within half an hour. So a lot of progress has been made in the last month.

Still getting up 2 or 3 times in the night to feed though an the new trick is that she rolls onto her tummy and gets stuck :( but by far the worst is she frequently wakes at 5am now and it's hard to get her back to sleep even in our bed. We are knackered.

But other than to let those of you still having problems that there is hope for progress I really just wanted to send a big hug to PukeyRag, how awful for you that things are so bad and I'm not surprised your LO's sleep has suffered, sounds like you need to give each other lots of cuddles so maybe it's not such a bad thing she's clingy after all.

[PukeyRag]

Hi all, not much has changed here apart from DP promising he'll change etc, (told me he'd marry me blah blah blah) it's all rather draining! :(
It's sort of on and off with the napping - i've managed to pull myself together a bit so that DD doesn't get as stressed, but the feeding is still a battle, it's just taken me a good 2 hours to get her to sleep. She is currently on my shoulder but i'm going to attempt to put her in her chair.
As for the night times, sleeping in her cot didn't happen last night, and I honestly don't know how many times she woke up but she guzzled 12oz of milk in little bits so it was a lot! Still, I think we managed about 8 hours split up but still feeling exhausted!

Looby - Thanks for the choccies! As for the help, I think i'm pretty much on my own, my mum is the only person who could help, if only she didn't have such a hectic life, and she helped so much in the first few weeks I would feel bad for asking her again.
Definitely sounds like your DS is having a growth spurt, but like owainsmum said, your milk supply will catch up with his tummy!

owainsmum - Will definitely join you in the drinking of the wine and eating of the chocolate!
Sorry to hear you're going through the teething stage, I think at the moment you just need to do what's easiest for you and DS. :)

fifi - Hello again and thank you, we are definitely having lots of cuddles! So much so that I actually miss her if she naps in her chair for half an hour!
It's fab that you can put her down so easily, well done!

As for the rolling, DD was doing the same, but only when I put her in the ergococoon. A normal sleeping bag prevents her from rolling right over.

Well, it seems we're all pretty knackered, let's all have a and chant:

'This too shall pass'.....

[owainsmum]

This too shall pass... this too shall pass... :)

Pukeyrag- glad you're feeling a little bit better, plenty of chocolate will always help, or at least it does for me anyway!

fifi, would it be worth you trying the wake to sleep approach with the 5am waking? It seems to work well for others, so could be worth a go.

The last couple of nights haven't been quite as bad here, although DS is still not sleeping more than 2 hours at a time in the cot, and after he gets into bed with me I don't keep track of how often he wakes. We're going to stay with DH's family next week for a few days and I really don't know what to bring for DS to sleep in. I was going to bring the hammock, but I haven't been using it the last few nights. Last night when I put him down asleep in the cot I stayed in the bedroom for a little while in case he woke, and noticed that he actually kicked his legs around a few times (without waking) before settling into a deeper sleep, so I think if he had been in the hammock he would have woken himself when he was too restricted to kick around. The other thing is that their house is really warm so DS might be too hot in the hammock. We have got a travel cot but have never used it yet, so I'm not sure if DS would sleep in it. The other issue with it is that the mattress is just above the floor so it would probably be very difficult to put DS down asleep without waking him on the way down. Then again, he'll probably get into bed with me when I go to bed anyway! So I really don't know what to do, should I take the hammock which he is at least familiar with, or the travel cot?

Anyway, time for a I think

[PukeyRag]

owainsmum - (providing you haven't gone yet) Hammock, definitely, as it's familiar to him, OR try him in the travel cot at home first and see how that goes?
Re the waking up whilst being put down - DD used to do this until I started putting her down with my entire body, not just my arms iyswim, holding her tightly. It's effort, but it's worth it

So, some good news and some bad - DD has improved an awful lot with her day time naps, she has started having a nap every two/three hours for about half an hour-an hour and it's not on me any more!
Every nap is now ten minutes on me, then in to the babysitter.
However, the bad news is that I can't leave her for more than 5-10 minutes at a time because she'll stir and I have to bounce her back to sleep! I'm hoping if I do this enough but gradually reduce it then we'll get to the point where I can plonk her down for half an hour without worrying.

Night times are still pretty crap, however because she is now sleeping for what feels like three quarters of the day she's not waking as much in the night.

[hellitops]

I'm a first time mum and I've had similar difficulties. I wish I had found out about this website earlier, it is so nice to talk to other mums! My Nathan is almost 14 weeks and we've gone through a bit of everything. Until we got his colic sorted out a couple of weeks ago by switching to comfort milk, most of my day was taken up with a screaming or at least crying baby. It was horrible, I was really worried I was going to get post natal depression because if I didn't get enough sleep, or felt like I hadn't got enough sleep, his crying really used to get to me and often felt like I couldn't take much more.

I am sick of the phrase 'sleep when they sleep' -Nathan doesn't sleep long enough during the day for me to do much more than grab a quick bite to eat and take a minute to calm myself. Thanks to the comfort milk and some determination on my part, I've managed to get him to take slightly longer naps, but as at most they are around an hour, I still can't sleep really when he does -I soon worked out I need 1 1/2hr or I'm rattier than I would have been without any extra nap. It's weird though as he's an absolute angel at night. Goes down around 8am and sleeps through till around 6am.

I've been trying a bit of 'crying down' to help him go to seep on his own, or at least with less crying, and at least half the time he manages to go off with only a minimal amount of crying but other times he just keeps crying and I give in and pick him up and rock him instead. But often when I do that he just wakes and starts crying again. Sometimes he wakes up before he's hand enough sleep and he takes ages to go off. I have a sling but as he should be around 14lb when I get him weighed again on Thursday, he's getting a bit heavy to carry around for any length of time. Also, he is a great wiggler and he spends hours now on his play mat and trying to roll himself over.

If we could sort this day time napping issue out properly, Nathan would be one of those angel children. I'm so glad for the full night's sleep as it does help me to deal with everything that happens during the day and I feel I am keeping any post natal depression at bay for the time being.

Nathan also has an additional problem. He has large strawberry birthmark on his lip, which has made his lip swell. We've had to switch from the tommy tippee bottles as he was crying almost every time he fed because he was struggling to get a good enough seal around the tea. We are now on the avent bottles and that has worked for a few weeks, along with the comfort milk, but now he's started crying again when he eats which causes distress, more wind and therefore some tummyache and tires him out so he falls asleep on the bottle or will only have half and take an hour or more to get around to finishing the bottle. I am going to discuss both these things with the health visitor on Thursday but how helpful they are seems to depend which one you talk to, and they seem to rotate :(

Sorry for the long essay

[YogaMummy2B]

Hi there, have been lurking for ages as my DD is still 'behaving' herself when it comes to sleeping.
Pukey sorry to hear of your bother at home, I'm sure the additional stress is not helping.
Helli it sounds like your DS has silent reflux, google the symptoms. Have a chat to your HV about it.

[hellitops]

hi yoga which websites are good for information about silent reflux, I don't want to read the wrong thing. Boots WebMD, mumsnet?? I thought it was the birthmark swelling his lip and disrupting his feeds, and the problem with naps was the wrong sleep associations but if it is something else, I would rather know so I know what I'm dealing with and can help him if possible :(

[YogaMummy2B]

Hi Helli have a look here - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/breast_and_bottle_feeding/1024071-Support-thread-for-all-parents-with-reflux-babies
Also look on the website - crying over spilt milk a NZ reflux website. If it is this there is lots you can do to help. Dont worry.

[hellitops]

thanks yoga have posted on the support thread and am going to read the website now. Enjoy your , have a glass for me

[PukeyRag]

Hi all, sorry for not posting in a while - have been REALLY working on DD's naps during the day, it's up and down at the moment, although I am slowly getting to the point of being able to leave her for longer.
Still she's very clingy when awake - and feeding is still a battle! I honestly don't know what's up with her. At first I thought it was being over tired, and then I thought it was being too alert, but really, I don't know. She just makes a huge fuss over eating and it's getting pretty stressful.

How is everyone else doing?

Helli - I agree with Yoga, it could well be silent reflux. :(

[JeewizzJen]

Oh my god - this is the thread I've been looking for! Love mumsnet :)

My DS is only 2.5 weeks old (my first), and I'm totally happy to accept that he's too young to be wanting anything other than cuddles at all times, but I just wasn't sure if it was 'normal' that he won't be put down to sleep at all, and will only sleep if he's on me or DP. I'm typing one handed with him on my chest now!

If I put him down in the moses basket, swaddled, not swaddled, after the 30 min 'deep sleep' wait, and other things we've tried, he just wakes up after 5 minutes. To be honest he's feeding so frequently anyway that if I feed/change then wait 30 mins it would only give me at an absolute max an hour before he would wake hungry anyway (I'm breastfeeding). At night I have to prop myself up in bed and try and doze while he sleeps on my chest. I've been too paranoid to try him next to me in the bed, rather than on me, for some reason. I just am not sure I'd be doing it right, and safely! In fact, being my first, I feel a bit like that about everything!

My DP goes back to work on monday and I'm so worried I won't be able to manage. I have a sling which is brilliant, and works a treat, but he gets so hot in it in this weather (so do I!) that I worry about leaving him in it for long periods. :S

Having read the thread it sounds like time, for now, is the answer, especially given he really is so young still. But any tips/support are very gratefully received!

[hellitops]

hi jen

just talking to other mums is great, even if your baby is "normal". I know I missed out during DS first 3 months. My support network is very narrow and I don't really know any mums or have much of a social life to help reduce stress levels, which every new mum has. I'm a first time mum and I can tell you I was terrified when DP went back to work (and he had 3 weeks off) but DS and I got ourselves settled quite soon.

You will soon learn which cry means what and will know what he wants. It might be a good idea to try expressing so DP can take over one of the feeds in the evening and give you a much needed break and time to recharge. My DS loves sleeping in his cot, and now he has got a bit more used to it and when he isn't suffering with reflux or at night time, he now sleeps in it for 45mins or so during the day and all night through. Co-sleeping never really worked for us but everyone is different. Sounds like everything is normal :)

I think you might be able to add people as friends on here, I would be more than happy to be one of yours :)

[JeewizzJen]

Thanks for the kind words Helli :) It is definitely good to be able to talk to other mums; it's all so daunting!! I really appreciate people taking the time to listen and talk :)

[fififrog]

Don't want to depress anyone but all good napping progress has been literally wiped out in the space of a week! Thinking it's 4month sleep regression and desperately hoping it's just a phase but we're now reduced to 30 min naps and she won't go to sleep on my bed any more. Had 40 mins of crying this morning then gave up, half an hour later she fell asleep in my arms where she's now been for about an hour - I'm glad she's had a decent nap but we're really back to square one

Pukey, not saying don't worry about the feeding but about half my group of mums with babies of similar age have been going through major battles with feeding including myself so you're not alone!

[PukeyRag]

Just a quick post - will post a bit later on properly - just wanted to share!!

DD has just self settled on the floor and is sleeping happily!!!

Feel like telling the whole world, I feel like dancing She was wide wake, put her down for a roll around, was watching the tv and when I looked back she was drifting off, sucking her fingers! So pleased.

Back later :)

[hellitops]

Hehe go DD!! DS has done this a couple of times for his first nap of the day on his playmat. Isn't it wonderful

[PukeyRag]

Hello again,

helli - Ooh it certainly is How are you getting on?

jen - Yep, it's perfectly normal - as you know, the whole reason I made this thread :)
As for co-sleeping, when DD was tiny I slept with her in the crook of my arm (still do in fact) and neither of us have ever moved an inch, you just have to be careful about temperature (i've got a groegg thermometer which is fab) and covers/pillows/gaps. Thousands of mums including myself co-sleep safely and successfully and people have been doing it since the beginning of time so there's no reason why it wouldn't work for you. The only time it can be difficult is when the baby is big and wriggly but by then most babies are fine in their own beds.
Remember it's whatever works best for you and your baby, it's all about being safe, close, and getting some sleep :)

[hellitops]

jen pukey is right. my future sister-in-law and other family members co-sleeps often for daytime naps with my two nieces and this has caused no problems. Sometimes one or the other ends in their bed too but often they sleep through in their cot/bed at night. It just doesn't work for DS and I; go with what works for you.

pukey groegg thermometer, are these good room temp monitors and would you recommend them? I have one on the wall on his bedroom (one of those cheap winnie the pooh ones from mothercare) but nothing for when in the living room :(

as for how we're doing, today has been interesting. He slept very little during most of the day poor thing but broke pattern by staying asleep in his car seat for nearly two hours when we came back from future MIL's (normally wakes up within 10mins of getting home) and he put himself off to sleep in the swing while watching top gear tonight :)

[JeewizzJen]

Thanks all for the comments :) We had a fairly good night, night before last - I managed to get him down in his moses basket for an hour between each feed which at least gave me some sleep, albeit pretty broken. I decided to try using a hot water bottle to warm it before putting him don 30 mins after he falls asleep. Seemed to work ok.

Last night, not so good, no more than 30 mins before he awoke, but he seems really hungry so I guess it might just be a growth spurt. He's just fallen asleep on me now after 3 hours of almost continuous feeding! I'm going to try putting him down in a few mins. It's difficult though, as part of me just wants to let him sleep (assuming he wakes up if i put him down!), but part of me knows I should at least try to get him used to his moses basket...

[LoobyLou33]

Hi all and welcome jeewiz and hellitops, nice to meet you! Haven't posted for ages as we've been having feeding nightmares, (still are to an extent) and I usually do MN while feeding! DS is in usual place sleeping on me on th feeding cushion and looks absolutely angelic

pukey fab news on the nap front! Both the babysitter and then sending herself off - WOW. What a breakthrough that's fantastic for you. Has it given you chance to get some more rest yourself? My sympathies with your feeding problems - not quite the same but DS had been fussing on or even refusing the breast which has been sooo stressful.

We've had some weird one-offs lately. Last week I had to move him off me after he'd already been asleep an hour (or longer - suckled to sleep and I never know when he's actually drifted off!) so i put him in the moses basket in the lounge. He stayed asleep for half an hour!! Then a friend was looking after him that afternoon and put him in it when he'd fallen asleep again, and once again he stayed sleeping.

Sadly - it hasn't happened since!!! obviously we have tried...no rhyme or reason.

Also on Sat we were at a big family do masses of hubub and chatter and he fell asleep on DH's lap with NO MOTION . we then moved him into car seat and he stayed sleeping. I put it down to the long car journey (his first) and the sheer noise. DH says we'll just have to live in a restaurant

jeewizz glad you're getting a bit more sleep yourself and he's going into his basket at night. i think at that age they feed so often you don't get very long. that will improve! One thing I've found with DS is that when I stopped trying to keep putting him down after he'd fallen asleep (only for him to inevitably wake back up and cry), but just let him sleep as long as he wanted to on me (in the daytime), things got a lot eaiser. Sure I can't sleep myself or do anything other than read/computer but at least he is getting more sleep and is less grouchy! And I don't have to placate him till the next feed. That's worked for me but see what you think -if your DS will go down with some coaxing that's definitely worth pursuing!!

[hellitops]

We've had a strange day today. He fell asleep on the bottle at the end of his first morning feed and i managed to put him next to me on the sofa. He slept for 40mins. When it came for his second nap we struggled. He eventually calmed down in the pram and hell asleep on the way back from the doctors but only managed 30mins. Due to only taking one oz since then he has struggled to sleep and will only sleep in my arms but he doesn't sleep well In my arms, lots of fidgeting and moving :-( he refused a bottle in favour of sleep but I'm worried about putting him down and waking him up when he's obviously wanting sleep but Im a bit worried he's only had 9oz today :-(

[PukeyRag]

helli - the groegg is great, especially when you're really tired and everything's a blur, you don't have to squint and make out the reading - you just look at it and the colour it glows tells you wether you need to warm up or cool down :) I think it's excellent.
As for only having 9oz, i'm sure he'll make up for it tonight or tomorrow :)

jen - Well done on the night before last, at least you know he's capable of sleeping for longer stretches!
I hope you have more success with the moses basket than I did - after three months of trying to get her used to it I gave up - it's now full of clothes and looking rather neglected! (she much prefers her cot)

Looby - Definitely a breakthrough although, much the same as you, it was a one off! I've tried putting her down numerous times today in the hope that she might self settle but no such luck!

Sorry to hear about the feeding, DD's doing the same thing with the bottle - I have no idea why :(
Fab that your DS went down while your friend was looking after him - my DD won't even eat for anyone else, let alone go to sleep and stay asleep! You must be so pleased.

I also think that living in a restaurant would be great it was the noise/car journey that helped him to sleep.


As i've said everyone, it's time that works the best and i've definitely seen improvement with my DD since I started this thread (it's over a month old now) and with some of your DC, too. Let's hope it carries on, eh? :)

[hellitops]

hi pukey will try and get a groeeg then, sounds great.

He ended up having 18/19oz yesterday in total, but I'm not sure that still isn't a bit low but will see if his feeds go up now he's on infant gaviscon with the normal infant milk (think comfort milk + gaviscon was too thick so he struggled and kept falling asleep on the bottle).

i'd almost forgotten how tiring it was to take 2 hours to get him settled in bed and going to bed around 11 instead of 9 :( thank goodness he continues to sleep through the night. Hope today is a bit better

[owainsmum]

Hi everyone, and welcome to all the new members :) it seems like ages since I was on here, but we have been away visiting family. DS was very good and I managed to get him to have naps in the hammock or put him down asleep on the bed, which was better than he usually is at home. Bedtimes were a lot worse though, I think because of all the excitement during the days with all the visiting different people and going to lots of places, he was over stimulated by the end of the day and wouldn't settle. He ended up going to bed late most nights, but was fine once I got into bed with him. He is starting to show signs of learning to self settle now, when he stirs in his sleep he will often open his eyes then drift off again on his own, although a lot of the time he still wakes a few minutes later, but I think it's a good start and a sign that he might be starting to get the hang of it. I think it will be a gradual process anyway, and now that we're back home I'm going to try hard with the daytime naps to get him either in the hammock or cot, and go back to the NCSS to encourage self settling at bedtime.
Pukey- that's great news about your DD self settling, maybe this will be a turning point for you now that she can do it and her nighttime sleep will improve.

Anyway, got to go, DS was asleep on me but has now woken up and wants to press all the buttons on the keyboard!
Good luck to everyone for naps and bedtime :)

[fififrog]

Wanted to reinstate some faith, not that anyone seems to have been too troubled by my last post, but things have been way better today after the worst night ever last night when she was way overtired and barely slept at all.

Today she had three naps on the bed again with only minor tears, one in the pushchair and just settled her for the night with no tears! Hoping for a decent night tonight - it couldn't possibly be worse but I really need some decent sleep. Daytime naps are now very short 30-45 mins, I wish she'd sleep longer but she doesn't seem to want to, she wakes up happy so I can't complain too much.

Fingers crossed we've ridden the wave and now we're back to normal...