SUPPORT THREAD Specifically for New Mums with "clingy" babies.

[PukeyRag]

(Sorry to use the word clingy, only one I could think of!)

So, there are so many threads on a daily basis with the same question -
"How do I get my DC to sleep on his/her own?"
New mums everywhere find that their DC will only sleep on them, and if they put them down, they'll only stay down for 10-15 mins or so, which is a nightmare, especially for those with babies who do the same at night, and makes you feel like punching the people who say "oh well, you should sleep when baby sleeps!"

This thread is to offer advice and support, techniques that have worked for others, and also for people to have a bit of a moan!

I hope more experienced mums will post the things that helped them, to help others.

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The Reason - ALL babies feel the need to be close to their caregiver, especially in the first few months of their life. It's not natural for them to sleep alone, as they don't yet realise that they're safe.
Their tiny bodies are experiencing so many new and strange things - sounds, sensations, feelings - they need you to be there every step of the way, and they don't care if you're tired to the point of seeing double, all they care about is being full and feeling your warmth and heart beat, which allows them to be calm and sleep soundly.
Bottom line is, we may be used to the modern world, but babies are not!

The Solution - In all brutal honesty, the only solution to this is time, but how do you get past this point of sleep deprivation/not getting things done?

Please read next post for my advice.

[childrenchildreneverywhere]

Have you come across BabyCalm? //www.babycalm.co.uk they run workshops for parents of new babies very much focussed on the idea of clingy babies and understanding how we can help them.

[lonesomeBiscuit]

My DS wanted to be held constantly to begin with, but I echo the above - it does pass!

For us it began to ease as he began to take an interest in the world. To begin with it was just a case of being able to put him down for 15 minutes under his playgym without crying (this was at about 10 weeks). By about 4.5 months a huge transformation had taken place and I could put him down for long periods during the day while he played with his toys or watched me, though he still needed to be held for his naps (and still does - he is snuggled on top of me now!).

My tips:

1. the best piece of advice I read re putting babies down to sleep is that it takes them 30 minutes to go into a deep sleep, so wait that long before putting them down, to avoid the instant wake-up. For some reason this only ever worked for us for nighttime sleep. It did make night wakings rather long - it used to take me an hour to an hour and a half to get him back to bed - but I would set myself up with a good book (plus sight of a clock) and at least that way I could get a couple of hours in my own bed afterwards
   
   
2. we developed a form of co-sleeping for naps which enabled me to sleep during the day, with me lying on my back in the middle of our bed propped on pillows at a 45 degree angle or so, with the baby on my chest. Once I started this life got very much easier (obviously you must take your own view re safety, this is just what we did and worked for us)
   
   We did also discover that he would sleep very soundly on his own on his front - useful for emergencies where I needed to get something done and could stay in the same room to monitor him - but we didn't do this very often because I read that front-sleeping may lead to a higher risk of SIDS because babies sleep too deeply. I felt it was much safer for him to sleep on his front on my chest because (a) they say that the parents' breathing stimulates the newborn's and (b) I remained aware of his breathing, even whilst I was asleep, and would wake at the slightest twitch.
   
   
3. ignore, ignore, ignore all well-meaning relatives who tell you that you must put the baby down / leave him to cry in his cot ("it never did you any harm as a baby") on the basis that he must get used to being on his own. He did - in his own time - without any tears and from the security of knowing that his parents held and comforted him when he needed it

[PukeyRag]

Thank you all for your input :)

Lonesome - I completely agree with everything you've said, and do pretty much all of it too!
Really don't agree with leaving baby to cry.

owainsmum - Sorry to hear you had a terrible night :( But great that you managed to get him to settle again, even if it was only for 5 minutes! Keep it up :)
To be honest I go to bed as soon as DD does, between 8-9. Don't want to miss out on sleep!
I do think solids will be a massive improvement (hopefully) I can't wait to get DD eating (she's 12 weeks so got a while to wait)

JetLi - I do believe there's a newborn back-hold you can do with a wrap sling :) Look it up on YouTube.
Oh bless her, I hope you managed to get her to sleep this afternoon!
I've tried dummies and so far she has shown little interest, gagging and pushing them out with her tongue. Shes only taken it a few times so don't think i'll bother!

So something amazing has happened today, she stayed asleep in her pushchair for about an hour and a half this morning, she did cry a couple of times, so I picked her up and she fell asleep on me so I popped her back in and both times she stayed down, so i'm rather pleased with that :) Fingers crossed this is a break-through, at least the washing finally got sorted!

[JetLi]

Oh thats fab news oon the long nap front Pukey

Will have a look at the newborn back hold. At over 18lbs in weight it should be interesting but at least I can do a few bits of ironing. 2 kids under 2 = too much laundry

[owainsmum]

I'm not looking forward to tonight, I think I'm going to have a seriously overtired baby on my hands. This morning he didn't really get any naps, he had just gone to sleep (on me) mid-morning, then I had to drive dh to the station, so had to wake ds to get him in the car. Of course he fell asleep just before we got back home so woke again as soon as the car stopped. Less than an hour later I had a doctor's appointment so no time to go for a walk so he could sleep in the pram, then straight after that we went to a weaning course for 2 hours. He's just fallen asleep on me now so I'll try to get as long a nap as possible out of him. He did get his first taste of solid food at the course though, I wasn't expecting them to make up foods there, but they made steamed apple and mashed banana. Ds was very interested in it but couldn't get the hang of eating from the spoon, he just sucked it so probably ate a little bit but most of it went down his chin, in his eyebrows, all over his hands, all over me... I think he'll be ready in a few more weeks but not quite yet. Still hoping it will make him sleep better though!
Oh and I also ordered a door bouncer which should come tomorrow, so maybe I'll be able to keep him occupied with that for a while so that I can do the housework.
Also, has anyone had success with a sound activated musical or white noise thing? The type that comes on if the baby starts waking at night, with the idea being that the music or white noise sends them back to sleep.

[cyberfairy]

looks at thread through blurred haggard eyes with writhing shattered baby on lap
My boy is 4 months and he hates being out of my arms-getting too heavy for ring sling and is not as fond of the Rose and Rebellion carrier as he can't look around at everything as much.
Owainsmum, your posts could have been written by me! Regarding the door bouncer, a washing up bowl under their feet makes for great excitement but sadly not enough to go to bloody sleep...Three continuous hours is the norm for me, often worse, occasionally better and an hour or so in the day if he sleeps on me/in the car/in the carrier.

[JetLi]

and for cyberfairy - welcome

[johnnycomelurky]

I just wanted to say thanks for this thread, great to know you're not alone as in RL I only seem to meet people with "easy" babies and lovely as my son is easy he is not! We struggle with naps, bedtime, and way too many night wake-ups, oh and hysterical crying from the lack of sleep-him and me.

We have a bedside cot and he does sleep in it most of the night but if he won't resettle I put him down beside me. I just got a sling (Kari-me) and he likes it but has only managed short naps in it so far. Sadly I have no wisdom but found the Dr. Sears website reassuring and may get the book someone else mentioned. Am on iPhone so sorry if any typos. I look forward to hearing others experiences. Oh god, so tired I almost put a kiss at the end

[johnnycomelurky]

Oh and he is almost 19 weeks and EBF.

[PacificDogwood]

Sympathies to all of you.

Re heavy babies in carriers: I had a sleepy wrap for DS4. It is exactly the same idea as the more 'famous' Moby Wrap, but a heavier weight jersey which I found sagged less and also held him closer to me. This made carrying him a lot easier. I found BabyBjorn really quite hard on my back, although my DH liked it.
If you can make it to a SlingMeet in your local area to try out different carriers and speak to experienced users, then do go - it is really helpful.

Re front sleeping: I am well aware of the current SIDS advice, but there are some children who will sleep only/much better on their fronts. Personally, after the immediate newborn phase when they have some control over their heads, I would not hesitate to let my baby sleep on their front as long as I was with them (another plus point for co-sleeping IMO).
Also front-sleeping can be helpful for babies with a lot of reflux.

Swaddling: we had a Woombie (gawd, this thread is giving me flashbacks) which seemed to stop the jerking himself awake to some extent.

We were any retailers dream when things were bad...

Hope you all get some sleep tonight.

[kalo12]

great thread.

When you say ' clingy baby' what you are really saying is 'responsive care giver' this is the best parenting.

low point for me for sleeping / breast feeding was definately 16 months so no quick fixes I'm afraid, but I said to my sister who has 4 kids,
'why won't he sleep'
she said 'babies don't'
I said 'what can I do?'
she said ' nothing'
That was really a break through when I learnt to just go with the flow (and I was working full time then!) my ds didn't sleep through til 3 yrs.
There are many books on getting babies to sleep which just proves how unnatural an expectation it is.

The best thing about having a 'clingy baby' and being a responsive care giver is that when they get to 3 years old, those children, ime, are much much easier and well behaved and less truculant than others.

[PacificDogwood]

Oh, I've got another one :

The next person who says anything containing the words 'rod for you own back' to you, you take said rod and beat them with it - hard.

'Tis bollocks - you won't 'spoil' them. Babies want to be held because they need to be held.

(I like my MIL really, I do, but sometimes...)

And what kalo said.

[JetLi]

What I hate so passionately is that I can see how badly she needs the sleep - that awful listless gaze they have & you can almost hear the pop-pop-pop of her little brain exploding with tiredness. We're lucky & doing good at night - co-slept from the get-go. Its the daytime sleeps that just aren't happening for us. DD1 was similar when I think about it. We spent hours each day in bed (her sleeping on the boob & me watching TV/reading). Sadly its almost impossible to provide the same service for DD2 since DD1 isn't even 2 years old yet. We will get there in the end I know, but the support thread is A Good Thing.
Thanks kalo & PD
Welcome johnny

[PukeyRag]

Welcome newbies :) Hands out coffee

owainsmum - Sounds absolutely hectic!
However the food class sounds fun, I bet he really enjoyed that.
I've actually found recently that the less sleep DD gets in the day the longer she sleeps at night, which makes no sense to me, and also proves pretty difficult in the day. (Also now wanting her to nap in the day but worried it will shorten her first stretch of sleep at night - aaargh!)
He should love the bouncer!
Re sound activated music things - no experience yet! (Going to mention what I bought today at bottom of this post!)


Pacific - Ta for the choccie! (it's one of my best friends at the moment)
DD loves the moby so I doubt i'll change it, she was a tiny baby anyway (full term but only 6 pounds 9 although she is starting to get pretty damn heavy) just a bit worried about the weather getting hotter as we were out the other day and it was quite sunny - she was baking in the sling, poor little mite
Re lying on the front - Definitely agree, it can also help windy babies as well as ones with reflux and I think a lot of babies prefer it.

Anyway, had a bit of a spending spree on ebay today and ordered a slumber bear plus, it plays recordings from inside a womb (yes, a REAL womb!!), white noise, ocean sounds, lullaby music AND you can record your own voice. It's also sound/motion activated. (Very posh indeed!) So i'm hoping it works.

Also bought a fisher price rainforest jumperoo, it looks so fun I wish I had an adult sized one and had to buy it thinking this will keep her entertained for a good while!

And bidding on a baby bjorn babysitter that I think she'll enjoy. She isn't going to know what's going on

Really hope you all get some decent sleep tonight! DD is on me at the moment so time for bed I think! Good luck for tonight everyone.

[PukeyRag]

Kalo and Pacific - Totally agree!

[kalo12]

another tip - don't underestimate the benefits of a good pram. my ds hated slings - i had four different ones and he didn't like any. but i had a mountain buggy with a carry cot and this is so comfy and such a smooth ride that he always fell asleep in it so i would wheel him for about 10-15 mins round the block then wheel him home and put my feet up for 1/2 hour. even slept well for all daytime naps up til 3 years.

had friends with different prams who said their babies never fell asleep in the pram - they had mclaren buggies mainly, and always wanted to put their babies down in the mountain buggy

[YogaMummy2B]

OMG, thought it was just me! My DD has just had a feed at 5.30am and is now lying sleeping on me. I am totally wrecked! She is 9 weeks old and has not slept during the day since birth, unless attached to my chest.
I thought it was reflux related but the medicine has calmed that down at the moment and she is still the same.
As soon as I put her down she starts to stir. So the 'sleep when she sleeps' advice doesn't help.
She barely even sleeps in car seat or pram, so if I'm trying to get her to sleep in the day at all she is laying on me.
Night time isn't much better. She will go down in her cot right beside thr bed from 11pm until between 4 & 5am and then she wants to be on me again.
To say I am tired is an understatement!
Anyone tried an Amby hammock? Meant to be great for them to soothe themselves over with movement. Am currently trying to get one from Gumtree.
I have a slumber bear and it doesn't really do anything for my DD, esp as it only activates when they are really crying and I don't let DD get into that state if I can avoid it.
Currently typing with one eye shut as so tired can't focus on screen on phone!!

[JetLi]

A large for YogaMummy2B - hello

We have the Amby although DD isn't in it yet as we're co-sleeping at the moment. It has been washed & ironed ready though & I might give it a crack this weekend since she is getting big and takes up too much space in the bed. DD1 always slept well in it. Try & get the newborn hugger to go with. It helps stop them rolling around when they're teeny.

Going for another coffee now >

[cyberfairy]

YogaMummy, I completely identify and wish you well. My DS was the same and still is to some extent. At least you can get her in the cot for most of the night-we are still struggling with that. I found train journeys were brilliant for getting him to sleep, used to fantasise about getting a slow train to Fort William.
Thanks others for advice and empathy. I find it so frustrating, far more so than when DS was smaller because it was expected then-now people ask if he sleeps through the night, say how long their little angel lies for and give advice I have already tried. Or if you are my mother, tell me I am starving him and he needs mashed potato (this was when he was three months) and putting in a room where I can't hear him all night.
Last night he went to bed at seven, a record as he had less than an hours sleep all day. He then woke for another feed at 9, 12, 3, 4, 5 and 7. Each time I tried to soothe him back to sleep without feeding, feed him without taking him out of cot by giving him formula in the hope it would fill him more (he normally breastfeeds) rocking, patting, shushing and each time it ended with me exhausted, him screaming until I took him out of cot and to my boob even though I doubt he was hungry as a lot of the time was not interested in bottle.
I am going through a lot of foundation and Pepsi Max.

[JetLi]

No cry sleep solutions by Elizabeth Pantley is a good book.

[PukeyRag]

Morning all :)

Yoga - Welcome, we understand completely :)
Have you tried having her cuddled up to you at night rather than next to you? It might help. And do you have a sling for the day time?
At this stage all you can really do is hold them, I did however find that in the early days my DD slept quite well (quite well being half hour or so) in the pushchair while it was parked outside the back door. I think the fresh air helped and I swaddled her in so many blankets to keep her warm that I think it made her feel really safe.
Ah, shame about the slumber bear - I may be selling it on in this case :(

Cyber - Really, ignore the people who judge/give 'advice', those who have babies that sleep well just don't get it most of the time. (until they get a shock with their next one ) Every baby is different and you know full well you're not the only one so just trust your instinct, do what you feel is right and don't put yourself down just because others have "good" babies. Remember our little limpets will be so loving and trusting that it will all be worth it in the end. :)
If you keep trying to get him to sleep without feeding he will get it eventually. My DD still feeds to sleep and to be honest, she's so alert before she feeds I don't really know how to start getting her to sleep without it. She just shouts at me if I try!
Oh foundation, what a wonderful invention. And it's coffee with me, I never liked it before I had DD!

Jet - Yes, I think I may invest in this book actually. I've looked her up online and it seems like my kind of thing.

So, had a good night last night, only up once for a feed (got about 8 and a half hours which is the average) However today i've had about two minutes (to eat a piece of cake ) before she objected to being in her bouncy chair and now she's tired but refusing to sleep. I've just propped her up next to me on the sofa and she seems quite happy sitting next to me (getting lots of smiles and yawns) so i'm just going to be lazy and watch some documentaries (obsessed with them at the mo)

• Spoke too soon, just previewed the message and now she's complaining slightly so i'm going to start the first mission of the day - get baby to have morning nap!

[owainsmum]

Well last night was a lot better than I thought it would be. I got ds into his cot asleep at 7.30, then he woke after an hour. I picked him up and almost had him cuddled to sleep but then he very loudly filled his nappy I took him downstairs to change the nappy and he fell asleep on the way, but was of course wide awake by the time I had changed him, so then fed to sleep again. We had 3 lots of sleeping in the cot for an hour at a time before I took him into bed with me. He seemed to suck a lot during the night though, and again was wide awake for ages at 4am for some reason.
I'm hoping tonight won't be too bad, he hasn't had very good naps today, I took him shopping this morning, which he wasn't too happy about (typical male :)) so he had short sleeps in the car but that's all really.
Anyway, I hope you all have good nights tonight

[JetLi]

Afternoon all - how are things?

Wretched night last night. She was very unsettled around 3am, so we got up (virtually unheard of & I was most dis-chuffed ). Then the poor thing vomitted copiously...

She is now asleep (finally) on my lap, wrapped in a huge fluffy warm blanket, with her head resting on one of these belting out whale music.

[JetLi]

cyber may I recommend also a caffeine eye roll-on thing-ys & either a bottle of Benetint or the cheaper Benetint copy in Superdrug here - also very good for diminishing the death-warmed-up-look

[fififrog]

Ha ha pukeyrag maybe you're bidding against me ;-p

Tonight is cot-in-own-room night not going too well so far woken twice since 7.15 when she fell asleep (in my arms) about to pop her back in again - wish me luck all!!