Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

Oscar's Spartacus thread linked again, for those who are prepared to pledge their solidarity once more:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716595-TransAgenda-BullShit-The-I-am-Spartacus-Thread?msgid=63172773#63172773

Miranda you and Helen are awesome.

Such articulate comments and such a helpful, informative discussion.

Can I ask where intersex fits in to all this?

I've been reading this thread and trying to think hard about the issues raised here. I want to be an understanding and supportive person of others no matter what how they identify themselves. What I object to (and below is an excerpt from a NY Times article that say's it better than me, is the demand that we not only accept that non-biologically female people wish to be considered female - okay, I can understand that in the sense that gender is a construct, but to demand that the actual definition of womenhood (which is based upon biological fact remember) be changed to accommodate their wishes. This is a radical demand if you think about it and strip women of identity and power. This excerpt should demonstrate how extreme things have become:

"...the trans movement isn’t simply echoing African-Americans, Chicanos, gays or women by demanding an end to the violence and discrimination, and to be treated with a full measure of respect. It’s demanding that women reconceptualize ourselves.

In January 2014, the actress Martha Plimpton, an abortion-rights advocate, sent out a tweet about a benefit for Texas abortion funding called “A Night of a Thousand Vaginas.” Suddenly, she was swamped by criticism for using the word “vagina.” “Given the constant genital policing, you can’t expect trans folks to feel included by an event title focused on a policed, binary genital,” responded @DrJaneChi.

WHEN Ms. Plimpton explained that she would continue to say “vagina” — and why shouldn’t she, given that without a vagina, there is no pregnancy or abortion? — her feed overflowed anew with indignation, Michelle Goldberg reported in The Nation. “So you’re really committed to doubling down on using a term that you’ve been told many times is exclusionary & harmful?” asked one blogger. Ms. Plimpton became, to use the new trans insult, a terf, which stands for “trans exclusionary radical feminist...”

www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/what-makes-a-woman.html?_r=0

Has everyone seen the spartacus thread?

Without in any way wishing to be cruel, intersex is an abnormality where in some way development of the sex organs/chromosomes aren't fully in line with binary sex. The presences of intersex people doesn't mean that sex isn't binary and more than any number of other disorders changes fundamental basics of human biology. Even though there are a reasonable number of individuals born deaf, or blind, we still teach children that there are 5 senses as that is the truth about humans as a species.

Spartacus thread? I haven't. Can you link? (sorry I'm crap at hunting down threads)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716595-TransAgenda-BullShit-The-I-am-Spartacus-Thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716595-TransAgenda-BullShit-The-I-am-Spartacus-Thread

I personally feel that a person who intersex can choose to identify however they choose to identify if they have ambiguous genitalia. The truth is they aren't the ones shouting from the roof tops though.

It's the ones with not even slightly ambiguous sets of bollocks.

But as mentioned above intersex isn't at all related to transness. Though it was co opted by the trans movement to make them seem legitimate.

Thank you, Statistically, that's helpful.

And thanks DeathAn

I reckon someone who isn't in bed could do a fab Venn diagram featuring male, female, transwoman, transman and intersex...

Oscar, thank you so much for the "I'm Spartacus" thread. I am proud to be on there alongside everyone else.

Signing in to support the OP. It's easy to be 'nice' and say 'transwomen are women if that's what they want to be', but when there are circumstances when the differences between men and women are pertinent, it doesn't work. Examples include OBVIOUSLY lesbians' right to be attracted to females only, unfair competition in sports etc, being able to talk about and name male violence, and issues around healthcare. In all these examples it is clear that transwomen are not actually women, they are different to women in crucial respects. That doesn't mean we hate them, it doesn't mean we wish them ill and it doesn't mean we are transphobic. It just means we are not lying. I do believe that the stance taken by Mumsnet is a form of gaslighting, and us women are good enough at feeling bad about ourselves, we don't need any extra help. It's a fight to believe that we matter at the best of times.

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP too - some very interesting posts. It's all so scary though - how easily women's rights and presence are swept aside.

The Spartacus thread makes me so fucking proud of MN. Just so moved by the presence of outspoken, informed women saying something that has bizarrely become difficult to say publicly.

I hope it gets picked up by the press and by anybody else who will listen. I just love all you brilliant, diverse, articulate people and feel privileged to be counted alongside you.

It is being kept of trending. I am on another thread that is trending, and the Spartacus thread has way more women posting on it.

Another yelling NO loudly.

Miranda I would be very interested in reading some of your things too.

I have signed into and read through the Spartacus thread and feel ridiculously emotional. So much truth, so much honesty, so much anger, so much solidarity.

I bloody love this nest of vipers tonight.

I don't think a trans thread has ever been on trending or discussion of the day, regardless of how active it is.

I reckon HQ woukd keep them off active threads too if they could

It won't get picked up. Not by anyone reasonable

I listen to loads of media podcasts and the left wing are the worst apologist of this shit. Especially in the US, and by women. And I say this as a left winger.

OTH, the right wingers would love to pick it up and then we will be associated by the Christian pro-abortioners and the neo libs. Depressing

I might have to send various organisation some links. Not the Guardian though, they just don't give a fuck. WTF happened?

The press will not be picking this up because MNHQ won't be telling them about it.

Don't think for one moment MNHQ aren't giving the press the heads up on suitable threads to rip off. This won't be one them.

Pro-lifers obvs (oops)

Signing in to support the OP.