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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MN hq, In light of recent postings on various parts of the site, can we please have an all-round discussion around conduct, authenticity and where we, the users stand?

252 replies

WannaBe · 21/10/2014 14:14

It’s fairly evident that there has been an increased influx of threads perceived not to be genuine of late. It has got to a point where people are hiding certain sections of the boards, sections which should be there to offer support but which are actually becoming a bit of a breeding ground for highly emotive threads which, after a day or two, turn out not to be genuine and then disappear only to be replaced by another one of the same type.

The problem with this is that there seem to be more “what happened to x thread?” posts on those boards now than threads themselves, which has totally taken away the supportive element to certain parts of the site.

This has come to a bit of a head last night because an extremely sensitive thread has been closed due to doubts about its authenticity, but the thread itself is still there for anyone to see, but subsequent discussion about the thread in question has been deleted due to it being “a taat.”

I appreciate that it’s not always possible to know whether a thread is genuine and that sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction.

I also appreciate that we as grown adults are responsible for our own reactions to what we read online and that we should never share more than we can afford to lose.

But in the real world you know that it’s not always that simple. Because people do read threads and do identify with them on a personal level, or empathise with an op, and feel the need to offer support. And when it turns out those threads are not genuine, people feel as if they have needlessly offered of themselves to support someone whose situation was never real.

My personal view is that certain threads shouldn’t be allowed to stand regardless. Threads such as suicide ones where posters are neither emotionally equipped or professionally qualified to deal with someone on the end of a keyboard. There are numerous support sources out there for people with such severe mh issues that they feel their only hope is suicide. MN is IMO not nor should it be considered to be one of them.

The reality is that we are a parenting forum. Many parents will go through other issues such as mh issues, but in truth mn’ers cannot be all things to all people, and removing a suicide thread does not mean that mn is an unsupportive environment, it simply means that mn is not equipped to deal with a suicidal poster and feels that they would benefit from professional help. In addition to this, removing such a thread protects those posters who have either had similar thoughts, or have personal experience of suicide, and at the same time reduces the types of topics which people can post vampiric threads about.

Added to that, if a thread is considered to not be genuine and is deleted, removing discussion of it will not take away the thought of it, and the more threads are deleted with discussion being stifled, the more resentful posters will become, and the less likely to post on discussion threads.

People want to talk about threads. Not least because most people are here because they enjoy being here, and feel they offer something when posting in support. If you take that away from people by stifling discussion (however unpalatable some of that discussion is), people will start to go elsewhere, or simply not post anywhere.

In addition, if you refuse to discuss suspected troll threads, leave emotive but locked threads on the boards, people will just continue their increased belief that there are more trolls than regulars and will see mn as a non worthwhile place to post. A fantacist’s corner, as it were. Is that really how you want mn to be perceived? Because atm it seems like it is a novel writer’s paradise on relationships with a touch of bitching thrown in for good measure on ibu.

OP posts:
fluffydressinggown · 21/10/2014 22:55

No you are right. MN alone is not the right place to get support.

MN with RL support can be helpful. Like I said, what more can I do. I am fucking sectioned and on constants - am I still allowed to post about being suicidal because being in the system doesn't stop the feelings.

GuiltyAsAGirlCanBe · 21/10/2014 22:55

I think every suicide poster should get directed to the Samaritans, a service through which people can talk honestly and without judgement through their suicidal feelings.

Maryz · 21/10/2014 22:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fluffydressinggown · 21/10/2014 22:57

I also think it is interesting about The Samaritans because while they do provide support in terms of actually doing things they do nothing - they will stand/listen by while you hurt/kill yourself.

Sometimes when people suggest they ring I wonder if people know that, that they are a listening service. For actual support A&E is better (although hideous wait and not always terribly helpful but what else is there if you are not under crisis?)

wooooosualsuspect · 21/10/2014 23:06

But what can MNetters do,but listen? Nothing.

Except some seem to get over involved with a strangers drama. For what though?

To be the one who saves them?

SlowlorisIncognito · 21/10/2014 23:12

fluffy In my opinion, the best thing to do regarding someone in actual danger of harming themselves is to contact the emergency services by calling 999- this means you don't have the problem of waiting at A&E.

Maryz I believe that in conventional media the advice is not to provide details about suicide methods that would enable someone to copy the method for exactly this reason. Sometimes people want to commit suicide and knowing (or thinking they know) exactly how to do it is what pushes them over the edge into making an attempt.

QuintessentiallyGhoulish · 21/10/2014 23:27

I wonder if this guideline not to trollhunt is really working.

Maybe I shall start rebelling and yelling TROLL on a regular basis from now on.

AnyFucker · 21/10/2014 23:29

I don't recommend that, Quint. When you are suspended/banned that won't be helpful to anyone.

SlowlorisIncognito · 21/10/2014 23:35

Tbh, regarding trolls, one of the easiest things to do would be to show poster's post counts. This would be constantly changing so keep totally anonymity, but then users could easily see if someone was a "poster of longstanding".

Stopping name changes or making them require approval would help too.

I know posters with high post counts and a long history on the site could still troll, but mumsnet is set up to make trolling very easy.

Maryz · 21/10/2014 23:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QuintessentiallyGhoulish · 21/10/2014 23:37

No AnyFucker probably not, but it may be helpful to me though. Grin

I would get a lot more done with my life!

AnyFucker · 21/10/2014 23:38

This is true Halloween Smile

ChillingGrinBloodLover · 21/10/2014 23:49

How do we know that someone reading such a thread might not be pushed into silently following the "instructions", making their preparations and going ahead with it?

None of the threads have had instructions.

TheOnlyOliviaMumsnet · 22/10/2014 00:07

@QuintessentiallyGhoulish

I wonder if this guideline not to trollhunt is really working.

Maybe I shall start rebelling and yelling TROLL on a regular basis from now on.

PLease don't do that.
Please do REPORT anything you think we need to see
THanks v much

fluffydressinggown · 22/10/2014 00:09

You can ring 999 and still wait it takes crisis 1 to 4 hours to attend a&e. I'm not saying it doesn't help, it can but it is not always the simple solution it is made out to be.

Maryz · 22/10/2014 00:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WannaBe · 22/10/2014 00:21

fluffy but all mn'ers can do is listen. And in truth there's far too much opinion on mn - as much as the Samaritans listen, they do not give advice/opinions, whereas your average mn'er will come on to a thread and say "what you need to do is x, y, z, right now. Oh and do keep coming back to the thread and updating." and then there are the "bump" posts, and the "just checking in" ones. Hmm and in truth the posters who are the most upset are generally not the ones who post on the thread but the ones who silently read it, so there is no way of knowing what the upset poster count is.

And as stated here several times over, we are tlking about posts where someone comes on and posts that they are about to kill themselves and this thread is just to let everyone know this fact.... The reality is that if these posts are genuine suicide notes there is absolutely nothing anyone on mn can do about it because we do not know these people neither are any of us responsible for what happens to them, but if a poster posts such intent and then never comes back all we can assume is that they've followed through with it and then what? Are we just supposed to shrug and say "well if this thread helped one person it was worth it"? What about the people it devastates? what about the people it leaves feeling guilt-ridden because if only they could have said/done something that poster might still be alive, and in truth they might still be alive because they might be of non genuine origins or they may simply have gone away and not come back again - there is just simply no way of knowing.

OP posts:
AskYourselfWhy · 22/10/2014 00:44

Interesting thread.
WannaBe. You have explained your points of view really clearly and I wholeheartedly agree with you. MNers are often supportive and lovely but that simply isnt enough when dealing with serious MH issues. I find it bad enough when some MNers so readily diagnose things such as aspergers, it's not easy for the professionals so I don't know how anyone could be so presumptious in thinking they can diagnose it from a few paragraphs in an OP.

Doyouthinktheysaurus · 22/10/2014 05:17

I agree with all those saying suicide note style threads should be deleted. There is real life help out there, normally via A&E.

Both A&E departments nearest to me have specialist mental health liaison services 24 hours. I recognise services are not the same everywhere but the help is there even if you may have to wait to be seen.

It absolutely isn't fair on the general mn population to let these threads stand. They cause so much distress and posters do not have the skills or experience to help people whom none of us know anything about.

I'm an rmn but I won't post on those type of threads because I believe I would be compromising my professional integrity. I'm guessing I'm far from alone in that.

I do also genuinely believe that most of the very dramatic goodbye suicide posts we see are far from the whole truth.

I do think there is a space for those expressing suicidal thoughts though. Talking things through with others in an informal, peer support way can help and that is well within the remit of mn imo.

People with mh problems should never feel they aren't welcome on mn, the support is there but that needs to be balanced against recognising and accepting the limitations of the forum.

SnowyDrift · 22/10/2014 06:47

It's not easy for everyone to access what you call 'real life' help. This forum has helped me so much over the past 18 months. Not everyone has someone they can turn to in real life. I didn't. I do not live in the UK although I am originally from there. I cannot afford to rock up to a&e because I do not have the money to pay the fees. I don't go to the doctor unless I absolutely have to (previous issues + cost) because it is doubtful that we can spare the money for treatment any way. I even if I did, I would be entered into a system which I do not understand, and in a language I do not understand. I am not willing to have anything on my medical record that will be sent to my husband (doctors bills are itemised) nor that will affect my health insurance, nor that will be disclosed to employers if I ever get a job. I regularly name change because I live in a very small expat community, (and whilst I was under the impression that everyone has an idea of how to commit suicide but it's just not discussed) i am aware it is something that is not talked about and i do not want to be identified and burn bridges here. I have no family who I am on speaking terms with beyond a polite discussion of the weather.

Mn gave me some perspective. It was someone here who suggested there must be someone I could speak to. I ended up contacting someone who used to be a counsellor and who I had seen ever ten years ago. But there is no way I would have even thought to contact them unless I had posted here and got some support first. It gave me somewhere to post, to distract me and to talk me out of SH. Sometimes all people need is somewhere to talk, to acknowledge what they are feeling. For some people it is not simply "mh issues" it is their reality and they do not know what to do.

Doyouthinktheysaurus · 22/10/2014 07:03

But snowydrift what you are describing sounds like asking for support rather than a suicide note type thread. No one is suggesting this isn't a place for mh support, it absolutely is and should be.

I get what you are saying about people abroad not having the same access to support but I still maintain that this is not the right place for people to be posting their intention to end their life imminently.

I hope you find yourself in a better place now Thanks

LEMmingaround · 22/10/2014 08:28

I honestly wonder if mumsnet is going to fall on its own sword pretty soon. Its got too big and well known and as such a target for trolls. What with some of the more ridiculous threads being hyped up (penis beaker was a mildly amusing thread but someone (in marketing? ) made that into a media circus. People were not happy but the advertisers were gleeful.

Mn used to be my goto place for support but not so much now. Maybe I've changed but mnet has changed too. The troll hunting and arguing detracts so much from the site. More than the trolls themselves if you ask me. Ignore and report.

LineRunner · 22/10/2014 08:36

Funnily enough, LEM, I am in need of some RL support at the moment and I yet I feel reluctant to start a thread on here.

MiddletonPink · 22/10/2014 08:57

Agree with that lem. I said the same last year.

Sorry things are tough Line.

ArkhamOffett · 22/10/2014 09:07

Wrt the Samaritans advice on dealing with suicidal ideation - MNHQ have been advised to contact them for clarification in the past. yet here we are again and it's still something they are just looking into.
Samaritans Guidelines are very clear and I don't know why there hasn't been an MNHQ policy drawn up in the past (beyond the Wait And See approach).