MN hq, In light of recent postings on various parts of the site, can we please have an all-round discussion around conduct, authenticity and where we, the users stand?

[WannaBe]

It’s fairly evident that there has been an increased influx of threads perceived not to be genuine of late. It has got to a point where people are hiding certain sections of the boards, sections which should be there to offer support but which are actually becoming a bit of a breeding ground for highly emotive threads which, after a day or two, turn out not to be genuine and then disappear only to be replaced by another one of the same type.

The problem with this is that there seem to be more “what happened to x thread?” posts on those boards now than threads themselves, which has totally taken away the supportive element to certain parts of the site.

This has come to a bit of a head last night because an extremely sensitive thread has been closed due to doubts about its authenticity, but the thread itself is still there for anyone to see, but subsequent discussion about the thread in question has been deleted due to it being “a taat.”

I appreciate that it’s not always possible to know whether a thread is genuine and that sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction.

I also appreciate that we as grown adults are responsible for our own reactions to what we read online and that we should never share more than we can afford to lose.

But in the real world you know that it’s not always that simple. Because people do read threads and do identify with them on a personal level, or empathise with an op, and feel the need to offer support. And when it turns out those threads are not genuine, people feel as if they have needlessly offered of themselves to support someone whose situation was never real.

My personal view is that certain threads shouldn’t be allowed to stand regardless. Threads such as suicide ones where posters are neither emotionally equipped or professionally qualified to deal with someone on the end of a keyboard. There are numerous support sources out there for people with such severe mh issues that they feel their only hope is suicide. MN is IMO not nor should it be considered to be one of them.

The reality is that we are a parenting forum. Many parents will go through other issues such as mh issues, but in truth mn’ers cannot be all things to all people, and removing a suicide thread does not mean that mn is an unsupportive environment, it simply means that mn is not equipped to deal with a suicidal poster and feels that they would benefit from professional help. In addition to this, removing such a thread protects those posters who have either had similar thoughts, or have personal experience of suicide, and at the same time reduces the types of topics which people can post vampiric threads about.

Added to that, if a thread is considered to not be genuine and is deleted, removing discussion of it will not take away the thought of it, and the more threads are deleted with discussion being stifled, the more resentful posters will become, and the less likely to post on discussion threads.

People want to talk about threads. Not least because most people are here because they enjoy being here, and feel they offer something when posting in support. If you take that away from people by stifling discussion (however unpalatable some of that discussion is), people will start to go elsewhere, or simply not post anywhere.

In addition, if you refuse to discuss suspected troll threads, leave emotive but locked threads on the boards, people will just continue their increased belief that there are more trolls than regulars and will see mn as a non worthwhile place to post. A fantacist’s corner, as it were. Is that really how you want mn to be perceived? Because atm it seems like it is a novel writer’s paradise on relationships with a touch of bitching thrown in for good measure on ibu.

I agree orchard. Sometimes it is the most unhelpful thing in the world to be told to get "rl" support. Some people have literally nobody else to speak to and feel even more inadequate when they are effectively told to man up and speak to a pal.

I for one would be intimidated to join a new site with a different style if I urgently needed help - I would want to retreat to the comfort of mn. It is so so unhelpful and retrogressive to shut down discussions about mental health. I have done the ASIST course (suicide first aid training) and the basic principle is to take a threat seriously, whether you believe it or not. There are so many damaging myths about suicide (eg people who talk about it rarely do it) and I see mumsnet as a progressive site. To shut these people down is crazy.

Wombat is distressed. Whether she attempted suicide doesn't matter. Anyone could tell from her tone she is genuinely in crisis and some of what has been said to her makes me ashamed of mn.

For those who find suicide threads triggering, hide them. For anyone who feels like offering support (perhaps erroneously) is too much effort, don't bother. I for one am happy to offer support whether the poster is genuine of not.

Well I posted here because my rl support was pants and I just didn't know what to do and needed to just vent (my family do not talk about their issues and I felt too scared to admit to them that I felt suicidal at times etc).

I signed up to Sane but it was almost all suicide threads and self harm threads, which was much worse and very very triggering when I was that ill. So I posted here in the hope it helped and it really really did. I'm eternally gratefull to the people who posted on my thread.

TheOrchardKeeper & Cedric I'm glad you posted and I hope it gives others the confidence to post too.

But no-one has said that threads talking about suicide should be deleted. What people have said, countless times, is that there is a vast, vast difference between someone posting "I've had suicidal thoughts/I feel as if I want to end it all," and "I'm about to die, just wanted to say goodbye." It is frankly shocking that anyone working for a mh helpline feels that a suicide note should be left to stand on an open internet forum where there really isn't genuine help available.

Plenty of mh professionals have come on here and said they wouldn't go anywhere near a thread like that which, if you are saying that those threads should be left to stand but you wouldn't personally go on it, means that you think that such threads should be left to the vulnerable unqualified to deal with.

And it's a very dangerous stance to take that specified mh websites are too triggering so it's far better to divert that kind of posting to sites where people have neither experience nor emotional capacity to deal with them.

It's not just about the op here - it's about other posters too who are being given the responsibility of supporters by virtue of clicking on a thread - and let's face it - a thread in chat saying "just want to say goodbye" among multiple other posts from that same poster
is not going to give an indication of what it's about until you've clicked on it, by which time it's too late and if you are predisposed to such triggers you can't then just walk away from it. Oh but what happens then to this support that people "rely" on when the person supporting them has to go to work or put the kids to bed or get on with their actual lives?

People working on helplines or for charities are there in a supportive role at that time. So they know they will be there for the person on the verge of a crisis because they are contracted to be there be that voluntarily or in a paid position.

People on mn are here because we browse here while having nothing else better to do. Most people don't have the time to get caught up in someone's suicide note because life takes over. and what then happens if that poster commits suicide while the support they were relying on is putting the kids to bed? Who bears the burden of the emotional guilt for that?

It doesn't actually matter if it's a troll. Even if the person is genuinely writing their suicide note on mn it should not be left to stand because the reasons above as to why it's a bad idea are valid regardless of whether the op is genuine or not. Mn is not the place to be dealing with suicide notes.

I saw the second thread from last night and tbh I recognised the writing style and have told mn hq of my thoughts...

I learnt a lot the last time I was ill. Like where's best to go verses where you get told to go etc. It's something I'm always happy to pass on on similar threads.

Well yes, that's different! A 'suicide note' thread isn't the same but it's not black and white. I swung between planning it and almost being 'there' and said so on my thread but it was a long, long thread and not just a 'going to kill myself, bye'. I was just desperate. I think they need to be careful they don't moederate it too extremely.

"Sometimes it is the most unhelpful thing in the world to be told to get "rl" support." so what exactly would you have posters do if an op posts their "goodbye" message on mn? tell them to stay on mn and have a chat instead?

How many times do people have to repeat that this is not about mh in general but is about actual "goodbye, this is the end," type messages?

Orchard you came on to the mh boards because you were at a low point, you didn't come here to say goodbye - that would be entirely different. But you've said yourself that the reason wy you didn't go on to mh websites was because they were full of the types of suicide posts which some of us feel have no place on mn yet others are calling to have stand. What kind of place would the mh boards become do you think if those suicide notes started to migrate over there?

It comes to something very sad (in any sense) when people who unmask vile lying trolls (to protect other posters who are spilling their guts in a well meant but ultimately futile attempt to "help" at best, and polish their "saver" badges at worst) are more vilified than the trolls in the first place.

And the biggest trolls and fakers in the history of MN have been "well-known posters". We've all got a list etched on our brains, sadly.

Something nasty is lurking in the MN woodshed. It's a site whose members sometimes have too big an idea of their own importance. And I say that as one of them. But one of them who sits frequently in disbelief at what people on here are prepared to do and say for their 15 minutes.

What the people on these threads are doing is just as fucking dangerous as the idiots who get into cars at midnight and go on rescue missions. Except probably even more so, because one day someone is going to die. And all of you bleating on about what heroes you are on these threads are going to have to do some bloody big backtracking then. And it will happen.

to Cinnabar and everyone else who has shared their stories.

If they haven't yet I don't think they will. But I see your point. But I think a lot of us who've posted here about our own MH are worried that our ability to do so again is going to be taken away. I know that's not what youre suggesting but I just hope that whatever comes of this isn't overkill that affects those of us who sometimes really don't have anywhere else to speak about it.

X posted with Wannabe.

I agree.

A world of difference between "I'm doing it NOW, on prime time MN" and talking about your thoughts.

The savers get sucked in to the former, and then get humphy when, surprise surprise it turns out to be a troll. No shit Sherlock.

As a matter of interest, all the people patting themselves on the back on Monday morning for saving someone's life and "marking their place" for updates.....how much time do they put in on the quieter threads, like the ones Orchard means?

Exactly. Not so exciting are they? You don't get the thrill with those.

The overnight threads last night show that, whatever MNHQ decide (and it is their site) the decisions need to be taken quickly.

I hope they continue to look at what can and should be done overnight too.

It's all very well saying this sort of suicide thread will be deleted but this sort of course won't because for one thing there's a grey area between the two, and for another there's obviously lots of potential for misunderstanding of what's allowed and what isn't. If a MNer in crisis thinks she can't post because she'd be expressing suicidal thoughts - and several hundred posts in that's what several people are still saying - then that's not good enough.

mrsh but the vast majority of other sites including mh specific ones delete suicide note style posts. Mn isn't being noble by being the exception.

And ultimately if you post online in a time of vulnerability you really don't have any control over what happens next. Because while there is a lot of support on mn and other sites like it, the fact that not everyone is who they say they are and not everyone feels supportive it's equally possible that someone could respond to a mh crisis thread in a negative way.

And I agree with drank - there are a lot of self-important people on here who desire to be the one who "saves" someone. The types who drive out in the middle of the night to "rescue" someone, the type who bump the threads for updates while hand-wringing, the types who come back to report what they personally have done...

I see the latest thread has gone as well. Where interestingly enough the story of what happened the other night has vastly changed from the dh's version of it on Monday.

I don't actually think that it is possible to clearly be able to see that someone is distressed. This is the internet. People have the ability to write what and how they want and there really is no way of knowing that that is genuine distress.

I could start a thread saying "omg omg im so pset hve just found myy kitten dead what cn I do I don't know wat t do." (I have deliberately chosen a not too triggering line iyswim) but magnify that to something truly horrific and suddenly you have something which reads as distress. Except if you are generally a coherent writer it actually takes effort to write in a way which looks like distress but coherent enough to make at least enough sense to provoke a sympathetic response.

Go on, try it. it's like writing text speak if you're not used to it - it's actually quite hard to do and isn't something which would happen naturally just because you're upset - if it was handwriting perhaps the quality would deteriorate but typing - nope.

The irony is that people with experience professionally - and therefore most likely to post appropriate, measured comments- will stay away from these threads. Occasionally they might post, but on the whole, it is better to stay away.

Having just caught up with this and the now deleted thread from last night I wanted to add my support to two emerging themes from other posters.

As said there is a very big difference between a poster who is looking for support or wants to vent and one who is posting a suicide note. I hope that the former remains.

Trolls should be left from MNHQ to deal with. Whatever the truth, this weeks posts struck me as being written by someone who is probably vulnerable, and I think some of the responses to her were not kind. If I'm honest the lack of humanity in such unkind posts sometimes bothers me more than the trolls themselves.

If I'm honest the lack of humanity in such unkind posts sometimes bothers me more than the trolls themselves.

Which is the other problem with it being played out on the board.

I think it is perfectly possible to make it clear what is allowed to be posted- most other sites manage to do it. It is possible to have threads which are very supportive without ever allowing people to (a) detail methods of self-harm or (b) to post suicide notes/state that they are harming themselves right now/actively planning to harm themselves in the very near future.

It's very sad that some people feel that RL support is not available to them and mumsnet is the best option on offer. An internet forum is absolutely not an appropriate place to rely on for support in times of absolute MH crisis- for starters, what if there is a sever crash, and the site comes down? Equally, as has been said, you never know who or how someone is going to respond to one of these posts. It's not a "safe" method of support for someone in that kind of crisis.

I don't think anyone wants to stop people getting support for MH issues. I do think it's possible to do that in such a way that those threads are less damaging to people who might read them. And yes, reading about suicide in certain ways is incredibly damaging and likely to provoke suicide attempts for some vulnerable people. There is a lot of evidence that shows this to be the case.

My point is, though, that out isn't so much the rule as the perceived rule that matters. It makes sense for MNHQ to delete suicide notes, yes, and to permit genuine hand-holding. But if the perception becomes "you can't bring your crisis here" or "you can talk about suicide unless you mean it" then that isn't the intention.

MNHQ appears to dislike having clear rules - discretion is a huge part of its moderation strategy. I don't think that helps in this case, because trolls post something that stays, and someone in need avoids posting at all. I think clear, explicit guidelines are needed here.

Of course it's not an ideal support network/method. But it can sometimes be the only one. If people are posting about being very low on here then they likely don't have that support elsewhere, so don't need a telling off or judgement for their choice of 'outlet'. You do what you can to survive, literally sometimes.

People can be very cold when it comes to this issue. It's not black and white and it does need careful consideration, from people who know what they're talking about (ie Samaratans). Something needs to be done but people don't need shaming/scaring off in an already shit situation.

I use the reporting guidelines on a daily basis (and ensure that they are strictly adhered to.)
However they do not prevent material being discussed online - as long as info re helplines etc are made available.
They do also include the importance of:

"Include stories of hope and recovery, information on how
to overcome suicidal thinking and increase coping skills."

Which is exactly what is included in many mn threads.

The press can control what it prints. Mumsnet threads at the moment can only exercise control in a seemingly irregular and ad hoc manner which is also after the horse has departed. It doesn't count if you have ten stories of hope and recovery and then somebody rocks up with the opposite or worse. The suicidal person will be likely to latch onto that which is best reflective of their mood and ideation. It may not the be the story of hope. Suicidal prevention is skilled stuff and the lack of accountability is very worrying.

The reporting guidelines do not best serve social media and forums.

As I said, The Samaratans can't give you advice, only talk to you. I found them useless when I was having a crisis. Good to just talk to but not the same as support.

The suicide threat threads are different. I'm talking about posting on MN for support during MH crisis, when you may be suicidal but aren't doing it that second/telling people you will.