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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MN hq, In light of recent postings on various parts of the site, can we please have an all-round discussion around conduct, authenticity and where we, the users stand?

252 replies

WannaBe · 21/10/2014 14:14

It’s fairly evident that there has been an increased influx of threads perceived not to be genuine of late. It has got to a point where people are hiding certain sections of the boards, sections which should be there to offer support but which are actually becoming a bit of a breeding ground for highly emotive threads which, after a day or two, turn out not to be genuine and then disappear only to be replaced by another one of the same type.

The problem with this is that there seem to be more “what happened to x thread?” posts on those boards now than threads themselves, which has totally taken away the supportive element to certain parts of the site.

This has come to a bit of a head last night because an extremely sensitive thread has been closed due to doubts about its authenticity, but the thread itself is still there for anyone to see, but subsequent discussion about the thread in question has been deleted due to it being “a taat.”

I appreciate that it’s not always possible to know whether a thread is genuine and that sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction.

I also appreciate that we as grown adults are responsible for our own reactions to what we read online and that we should never share more than we can afford to lose.

But in the real world you know that it’s not always that simple. Because people do read threads and do identify with them on a personal level, or empathise with an op, and feel the need to offer support. And when it turns out those threads are not genuine, people feel as if they have needlessly offered of themselves to support someone whose situation was never real.

My personal view is that certain threads shouldn’t be allowed to stand regardless. Threads such as suicide ones where posters are neither emotionally equipped or professionally qualified to deal with someone on the end of a keyboard. There are numerous support sources out there for people with such severe mh issues that they feel their only hope is suicide. MN is IMO not nor should it be considered to be one of them.

The reality is that we are a parenting forum. Many parents will go through other issues such as mh issues, but in truth mn’ers cannot be all things to all people, and removing a suicide thread does not mean that mn is an unsupportive environment, it simply means that mn is not equipped to deal with a suicidal poster and feels that they would benefit from professional help. In addition to this, removing such a thread protects those posters who have either had similar thoughts, or have personal experience of suicide, and at the same time reduces the types of topics which people can post vampiric threads about.

Added to that, if a thread is considered to not be genuine and is deleted, removing discussion of it will not take away the thought of it, and the more threads are deleted with discussion being stifled, the more resentful posters will become, and the less likely to post on discussion threads.

People want to talk about threads. Not least because most people are here because they enjoy being here, and feel they offer something when posting in support. If you take that away from people by stifling discussion (however unpalatable some of that discussion is), people will start to go elsewhere, or simply not post anywhere.

In addition, if you refuse to discuss suspected troll threads, leave emotive but locked threads on the boards, people will just continue their increased belief that there are more trolls than regulars and will see mn as a non worthwhile place to post. A fantacist’s corner, as it were. Is that really how you want mn to be perceived? Because atm it seems like it is a novel writer’s paradise on relationships with a touch of bitching thrown in for good measure on ibu.

OP posts:
Mintyy · 21/10/2014 14:35

Yes please.

Its time for another discussion about consistency in moderating and another discussion about even allowing certain types of thread to stand.

And, by the way, if TAATs aren't allowed (I always understood this to be an unofficial "rule" anyway) then how come the taat about the op's sister and the text from the husband which even references the deleted thread in its title is still in Active Convos right now?

PulpsNotFiction · 21/10/2014 14:50

Well said wannaBe Wine

Where is the logic in letting the suicide thread stand for all to read yet the discussion about the fact it upset so many people is deleted?

Thurlow · 21/10/2014 14:52

I agree.

I've always felt the Site Stuff should be an area where you can quite openly talk about threads and about the tone of things on MN.

There was a similar debate a while ago, around the time of the discussions about AIBU's tone, about the impression some people got of posters ganging up on other posters in very subtle ways, or that sense when suddenly half a dozen posters with a very similar point of view suddenly appear on a thread.

I remember what many people were debating was that it is very hard to actually talk about how MN 'is' because nearly everything you might want to say came under the TAAT rule or something similar.

Trolls and fantasists are always going to happen. But I feel we should be allowed to discuss that, even if it is just in specific areas of the site, rather than just sweeping it all under the carpet, which is what deletion does.

AnyFucker · 21/10/2014 15:02

If this is a support site, and I like to think that it is, we have to be careful the balance of "support" does not swing to the time wasters, fantasists, and goaders and away from the people who stick around to give genuine advice, often at some personal cost to themselves.

The MH esp suicide ones are trickier, of course. The bottom line though is that MN'ers are not qualified medical/psychological professionals (for the most part) so people needing that high level of support and advice are best placed finding it somewhere that it is available.

ArsenicChaseScream · 21/10/2014 15:02

I remember what many people were debating was that it is very hard to actually talk about how MN 'is' because nearly everything you might want to say came under the TAAT rule or something similar.

Yes.

Maryz very appositely pointed out on the deleted TAAT thread last night that there have been recent instances of newbies refering to 'usual MN bullies' because they can pick up the undercurrents but have no clue what is causing the disquiet.

So the newbies are cheerfully skipping around engaging with trolls and dubious threads and clearly thinking that the eyebrow raisers are the problem.

That should tell us something.

DrankSangriaInThePark · 21/10/2014 15:03

Definitely well said WannaBe.

There needs to be a blanket ban and immediate deletion of suicide threads.

Aside from the fact that the elephant in the room is that we all know 99.99% of suicide threads are utter tripe, NO-ONE on MN is capable of saving someone else's life. No-one. And when you analyse the way these threads go, you get eleventy billion vampires hanging on for every update, and "marking place" and "how are you today OP"ing. And what these people don't realise is that (because they are dealing with a fantasist) they are effectively egging them on, which is why the threads escalate, which is why we get interminable updates, which is why we get husbands posting (as if....) Because MNers wanted it. They created the monster just as much as the lying bloodsuckers that started it off.

We all know that when we get a perv trolling, we don't reply so as not to give him more wankfodder to jack off to, right? Can people really not see that the hanging on with bated breath for the latest update from SuicideSally is doing just the same? Letting her get her kicks.

It repulses me.

DrankSangriaInThePark · 21/10/2014 15:08

And if we want to trot out the one example in all the years MN has been running of a person changing their mind because they posted on MN, how about thinking about what devastation the opposite reaction could do? What if a genuinely suicidal poster actually went ahead and did it because of something someone on her thread said to her?

We wouldn't be so quick to pat ourselves on the back and say how wonderful we were then, would we?

And while these threads are allowed to stand, one day it will happen.

PinkSquash · 21/10/2014 15:20

What's the difference between this TAAT and the one last night?

I am interested in knowing what you can and can't say to keep a thread open.

ScreamingSmegs · 21/10/2014 15:22

Completely agree with WannaBe.

2shoeprintsintheblood · 21/10/2014 15:33

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2210069-MNHQ-can-you-please-come-and-categorically-state-what-opinions-CAN-be-expressed-toward-DC

good luck with getting any answers from mn hq.

LilAnnieAmphetamine · 21/10/2014 15:39

Yes there were a couple of glaring inconsistencies in that last thread, more evident to those in the business so to speak. I don't want to highlight them because it just trains a better class of suicide troll.

Until HQ starts to liaise with mental health specialists on a more formal basis, it has NO business allowing such emotive and risky threads to stand unchecked. You are being very irresponsible.

KeemaNaanAndCurryOn · 21/10/2014 15:50

In my darkest hour this year, I posted a suicide thread and I've linked to it below. I felt there was absolutely nowhere else I could put it down or talk about it.

As it was, the replies in part helped kick me into contacting the actual support that I needed. It offered me that bit of connection that I just didn't have in RL at that moment.

Yes, absolutely people need to turn to real life support, but I don't think banning or deleting those threads would help. At the time, if HQ had deleted me, it really wouldn't have helped.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feeling_depressed/2059266-Just-putting-it-somewhere

KeemaNaanAndCurryOn · 21/10/2014 15:54

dranksangria. You don't know that 99.9% of threads are false at all.

You're right that no one on here can actually prevent someone from killing themselves, but my god did it help that night.

slimytoad · 21/10/2014 15:56

Keema, I posted on that thread, and all this today and yesterday has made me think of you. I never once thought you were a troll and I'm glad you are still here and that posting helped. From that perspective, it's very hard to know what to do. Perhaps locking the thread as suggested once OP is getting RL help.

KeemaNaanAndCurryOn · 21/10/2014 16:01

Thanks slimeytoad. I could have easily been called on for being a troll. New username, dramatic thread.

And actually, when I logged in from hospital the next week, seeing that people gave enough of a shit to ask how I was did mean something, and it wasn't ghoulish. It was that maybe some folk actually gave a shit.

wooooosualsuspect · 21/10/2014 16:03

The more suicide threads that are allowed to stay, the more people or trolls will post them.

I admit I just hide them. I don't think MN is the place for them.

SlowlorisIncognito · 21/10/2014 16:05

DrankSangria I'm trying to come up with a response to your post which isn't upsetting/triggering/so vague as to be pointless, and I can't. A few years ago now, I was a member of a forum where a poster committed suicide, and the fallout was horrendous. As mumsnet is a much bigger forum, without active moderation, I think on here it could potentially be even worse.

As I have said on other threads, mumsnet should not allow MH crisis threads (where someone is at risk of harming themselves) to stand.

I also think the way mumsnet works with namechanges and no post count/join date for posters as well as the rules against troll hunting and TAATs, and lack of active moderation, it's set up to be a troll's paradise.

FarEastMovement · 21/10/2014 16:07

I suspect MN generate some of the 'not genuine' threads and leave them up for more site traffic. The 'penis beaker' thread went viral and I'll bet there was a surge in traffic (didn't the site crash?) so advertising revenue would have shot up too.

BOFster · 21/10/2014 16:17

Which suicide thread is everybody talking about?

I don't tend to go in MH (it's not in my Active settings, for example), but there's no point deleting threads just because a poster has said they feel suicidal- just talking can obviously really help, as well as signposting RL support. It's not a bad idea for MNHQ to add their standard 'Take care of yourselves online' message when they are alerted to them either.

What really needs to happen, IMO, is for people to start using their common sense, and steer clear of people who post in a very melodramatic way. like. this. can't see. through. the tears sadface sadface...

If people just used their noggin and followed the Talk Guidelines to report what they think might be troll threads and then STEP AWAY, mumsnet might not be such a magnet for phoneys.

It would be a bit rubbish to say that we are a community that offers support if nobody could ever admit to how dreadful they were feeling. It kind of undermines a huge element of the site.

As far as the emotional voyeurs who constantly press for updates go, well, we all have a responsibility in that regard: just ask yourself if you are genuinely trying to support the person, and if it's just that you maybe regret ditching your Eastenders habit when Tiffany got run over- well, go and find something else to do.

ArsenicChaseScream · 21/10/2014 16:17

I doubt that Far

LineRunner · 21/10/2014 16:17

There a few 'unfolding drama' threads lately that MNHQ tell me check out ok, but which I simply do not believe.

Maybe I should just join in and add to the frankly ridiculous advice being offered.

LEMmingaround · 21/10/2014 16:18

I don't know how i feel about this tbh.

I would say that anyone posting on a support forum about suicide us reaching out for help. Lets be honest, if someone has made their mind up then words on screen are not going to make any difference. But there will be people like myself who are having suicidal thoughts and having somewhere to talk it out is just what they need. Made me realise i needed medical help. I didn't think that posters on here had the answers but it gave me somewhere for my thoughts and reassurance.

Does the fact that whilst i was genuinely distressed and visuslising standing in front of a train but knowing i wasn't actually going to do that make me a troll?

If the mental health part of this forum goes you will be pulling the rug out ftom under a lot of people.

wooooosualsuspect · 21/10/2014 16:22

It was posted in Chat, not MH

Thurlow · 21/10/2014 16:22

Keema, I remember your threads and I hope you are feeling better now.

seeing that people gave enough of a shit to ask how I was did mean something

This is exactly what I feel about these threads. It's awful when a thread is nothing more than a troll and the thread brings back horrible memories for other posters.

But I strongly believe that banning or deleting such threads takes away an area of support for people in crisis. Imagine if the thread is real, imagine if the poster is genuinely in crisis feels there is no one in RL they can talk to, and they want to try talking anonymously online - and imagine if that thread gets deleted as well.

It is a huge catch-22 situation because no one on MN is qualified to help a poster. But just talking will help some people. Taking away that support could be disastrous.

We had this debate getting the Pregnancy Choices board set up to more effectively support women through terminations. To me, when MN thinks that not letting certain topics stand because they are worried about abuse or trolls, the flip side is not providing support to people who need it.

wooooosualsuspect · 21/10/2014 16:24

It read like a suicide note. In chat.