Touching a sleeping partner intimately

[mummy1428]

My husband has never been delighted with our sex life. I'm fairly unadventurous and our sex is "routine" but in my opinion frequent enough for a couple with two young kids and full time jobs. Last night as we were going to sleep he had a go at me for never touching or kissing him. He maybe had a point but I just told him I was tired and going to sleep. I then woke up at 6.45am with his fingers inside me. I got such a fright and jumped out of bed asking what the fuck he was doing. He claimed he was "trying to wake me up for morning sex". We never have sex in the morning and he would know 100% that I would not want to be woken up by that ever.. or by anything at 6.45am! I truly believe he was just horny and wanted to touch a vagina so he went ahead and did his thing, completely dehumanising me. I don't want to destroy our whole family for this but it has made me feel so sick I don't see how we can move forward. Does anyone have any advice? I should add that he can be quite degrading in other ways too - groping me or making comments about my bum/boobs. He also gets sulky if I am "still" on my period or we haven't had sex for a while. I suspect he pretty much has sex on his mind 24/7. I will never be enough for him in that respect so what do I do?!

@boymum9 I just read through your thread (and the one from another woman that was linked to on your thread). It's scary how similar they sound. When you went to counselling, did you discuss the sleeping sexual stuff? I don't think my husband would want to discuss that as I'm sure he probably knows it's illegal!!

Are some posters being deliberately obtuse? It's not fucking difficult to understand. With consent: great. Without consent: assault.

OP, I'm so sorry.

I imagine that is why after 20years we are still married, clear calm thinking, not a world of red lines and calling the police even if just to 'log it'.

I've been with my husband for 19 years and we've managed that without having to ask each other not to penetrate me in my sleep. It might not be you having different boundaries to other women that's kept your marriage going but the fact that you have your sexual boundaries respected.

It's a snapshot you're right but il struggling to think of something than can change the scenario into consensual activity. In fact, I'm more inclined to think that because she's never asked him to do penetrate her in her sleep, she's not been in the mood for sex and he'd been complaining about her not touching him just the night before and she's told him she's tired and wants to sleep that he' could reasonably assume she'd be willing and happy for him to stick his finger in her at 6.45 am. Unless he's thick as fuck all those signs point to a "no" and he did it anyway. More chance of it being abuse and non consensual than what you and you husband have.

@mummy1428 yes we discussed it, it's all very confidential in counselling so unless they're really concerned for your welfare or a child's welfare they won't go and tell anyone, she was very level and calm and tried to talk through both sides, there's was never any mention of speaking to police!

The counselling didn't help us, I think once that had happened I checked out, ex h also has a habit of making people feel sorry for him and witnessing that in front of someone else made me really angry! Our relationship was "ok" otherwise, we actually got on great for the main part but over years I was worn down by his little lies (some significant but most not), constantly feeling like a sexual object to him (guilting me into having sex or doing things, constant grabbing and touching when not appropriate) and he just generally made me feel kind of miserable a lot but I could never put my finger on why, since now being in therapy myself and distancing myself from the relationship and seeing how he's behaved since, it was clear to see I was in a very emotionally manipulative and abusive relationship that made me so anxious and dependant on him.

I'd perhaps suggest going to see a therapist yourself to talk through things? It really helped me to see clearly that what I thought was "normal" really wasn't.

My 'd'h woke me up like this at one in the morning a couple of weeks ago. I was horrified. He KNEW I was shattered, it was a work night and all I wanted was sleep and he did that. I'm not sure I can move past it tbh.

I dont know if making changes would stop her DH doing these things which annoy her but I honestly think their boundaries need to be looked at.*

Her boundaries sound fine. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect someone not to try and stick their fingers in your vagina while you are asleep. Wether it's your husband or not

The only thing that needs looking at him and his behaviour.

You said in a pp post do men need to check three times and be told yes three times. This man didn't even ask once and a consensual cuddle leading to more is totally different to penetrating someone while they are asleep and haven't given you a single indicator they'd be willing and happy for that.

Being married is irrelevant, makes no difference, women's bodies no longer belong to their husband in marriage for a long time now and it's illegal to sexually assault and/or rape their spouse.

I'm genuinely flabbergasted at some of the excuses that have been made for this man. Someone sticking their fingers in me while I'm asleep isn't the same "touching" as as cuddles leading to more or moving you to get into bed.

I wouldn't call it sexual assault, myself and DP often waken each other up doing sexual thing's, sounds like your DH is sex starved

Do you actually understand the concept of consent?

Jesus the apologists for appalling male behaviour just keep on getting worse

Why the f*ck would you want to move past it?

If someone makes you feel violated-you leave. Your partner is supposed to love and respect you, no assault you in your sleep. Horrific to think that you could ever find yourself in a position of being made to feel you should just excuse or overlook such abhorrent
behaviour.

I'd be running for the hills! And I'd never want to see him again, let alone live under the same roof.

Holy shit. This thread is scary. Comparing OP’s boundaries to the boundaries of others, justifying the man’s actions and all the other unbelievable crap. It’s simple!!!! Whenever any sexual action is forced and unwanted, it is assault!!!
FWIW, I like being woken up for sex in some very sexual ways. But I LIKE it, and that’s what matters so my DP doesn’t assault me when he touches me in the middle of the night. And if I’m not keen, this is it, we just go back to sleep.
My ex, on the other hand, couldn’t understand that I’m up for almost anything apart from him finishing in my mouth. One night he forcefully held my head and just did it because, you know, it was his fantasy. I felt utterly violated and couldn’t move on from this.
OP I’m so sorry you’re going through something like this. If I can be brutally honest, I think some men can’t be “fixed”, no amount of talking or therapy will help. However, as one pp suggested, therapy could help you establish your own boundaries and find a way of dealing with this, a way that will be best for you.

This makes me think all the more that the relationship needs looking at

The relationship needs looking at?! It needs more than looking at, he sexually assaulted his wife! Waking your oh with a stroke of the arm, leg, back fine. Waking your oh by kissing their neck, back, face fine. Waking your oh by penetrating them with something, sexual assault. Can all of the apologists explain what is the difference between penetrating someone with your fingers without consent and penetrating someone with your penis without consent because I'm pretty sure the latter is rape.
I'm sorry this has happened to you @mummy1428 please contact Women's Aid for support and advice.

We have cuddled up to each other, spooning when one of us is in the mood, but if the other person isn`t then you just accept it. What happened to the OP is just so shocking.

I would expect the couple to be able to read each other and know when to make a move or when to just have a cuddle.

It’s not difficult to read “my wife is asleep, she has not given me consent to touch her intimately so I won’t”

It goes without saying that he should not have done this. Our boundaries are pretty relaxed, we certainly wouldn't regard groping as degrading, but I would not wake my DW by groping her, I only grope when she is conscious and has the chance to say no. Since this is a long relationship and children are involved maybe there is scope for working on it? Reading the OPs post suggests big gaps in understanding and, given that they have been together so long, a surprising lack of knowledge of each other.

Ffs some of the shit on this thread really bothers me.

My dp loves being woken up by me touching him. So fucking what? That's what he likes and he has communicated that.

It has no impact on the OP. My dp knows I dont like it because of previous abuse. He knows that and is happy with that.

While I do like morning sex, he waits until I am awake, cuddles up checks I am awake and makes the move. If I say no, he is fine with that too.

But non of this is relevant. Because the OP doesnt like it and he knows this. Therefore its sexual assault.

It's not that fucking hard. Just because some people like it, doesnt mean it cant be sexual assault to do the same to someone who doesnt like it.

Some women, apparantly, like anal. Doesnt mean all men should be able to give it a go without ensuring his partner is ok with it.

I despair that some people feel sorry for him, think their might be confusion or implied consent. Rather than believe the obvious truth....its sexual assault.

Proteinshakesandovieshat

Great post.

Exactly my point. If a man tried sticking a finger in anyone who was asleep and did not like this, the sentence should be "dont you ever dare try to that to me again" The second time he does it, there does not need to be a sentence, just the slam of a door. Dont stay there and let it happen again. (or throw him out) This male has been doing other questionable stuff like meet up sites. Again that is not acceptable one warning, no second warning, just slam that door.
By staying with him and sleeping in the same bed as him she is not asserting her boundaries.

For further information Forms in Triplicate were something which went on in businesses prior to everything going computerised. It was a set of papers using NCR (no carbon required) It is nothing to do with asking 3 times.

Anyway three times is at least one time too many in this sort of case

Since this is a long relationship and children are involved maybe there is scope for working on it? Reading the OPs post suggests big gaps in understanding and, given that they have been together so long, a surprising lack of knowledge of each other.

What? Because there are kids she should give him another chance after he sexually assaulted her?

It's down to gaps in communication? It's really not. OP says, he knows she doesnt like it. Theres no gap in that communication. He knows she didnt like it and did it anyway.

You think she should work on resolving the fact that her husband abused her, because she has kids?

I don’t understand how your later posts square with what you were posting earlier on the thread stillme.

Dont stay there and let it happen again. (or throw him out) This male has been doing other questionable stuff like meet up sites. Again that is not acceptable one warning, no second warning, just slam that door.
By staying with him and sleeping in the same bed as him she is not asserting her boundaries.

So its her fault for not leaving?

Do you realise it's not that easy to leave. People here are even saying she should work at it because of the kids.

The only person responsible for the sexual assault, is him.

Exactly my point. If a man tried sticking a finger in anyone who was asleep and did not like this, the sentence should be "dont you ever dare try to that to me again" The second time he does it, there does not need to be a sentence, just the slam of a door.

Why is he allowed a pass to do it once?

@PurpleDaisies the whole set up looks like there has not been much conversation and setting of boundaries. If the OP's DH tried putting fingers in without being specifically told not to perhaps after such an event was his first telling. He was then clearly told not to do that particular thing. People need to know what is acceptable to others around them be that DH or best pal (in different context hopefully)

I know it is hard to up and leave. It is also very distressing. I know that because I have done it. I put up with so much then draw a line. We should not have people messing with our boundaries or feelings. If your line is crossed deal with it.

Mostly I think couples should talk about what they are happy with and how this or that should be dealt with. There has to be a limit as to how many times a person needs to say dont do that.

Equally I think couples should be loving and understanding to each other and that way I think there would be less of this "forcing" type of moves. It seems to be something which happens. I have not experience that particular thing but I have had other things in my life which angered me to the point of walking out or throwing out.

Fucking hell some posters. I think at the very least you could expect your husband of however many years to not fucking stick his fingers in you when you are very obviously asleep. I don't even know how excuses are being made for it.

I@PurpleDaisies the whole set up looks like there has not been much conversation and setting of boundaries. If the OP's DH tried putting fingers in without being specifically told not to perhaps after such an event was his first telling.*

Ffs. Stop victim blaming. Nobody should need explicitly telling not to touch someone intimately while they can’t consent.

This thread is grim (not you op, some of the apologist posters). Consent is not that difficult to understand. She also shouldn’t have to tell him she doesn’t like it so that he doesn’t do it!! Women are not in a state of constant consent! He has to ask first! Wtf the fuck is wrong with some of you??

Op, as hard as it is to leave, it maybe the only way to feel safe x

@PurpleDaisies I don't see it as victim-blaming. I see it as having seen someone take liberties tightening up of boundaries are required.
You are now making me doubt what action I took when a male in my view spoke to me in a way I did not like. I made sure that male never got the chance to address any word to me again. I am suggesting that OP does likewise by not allowing DH near enough to her to touch her in any way at all.