"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I was a very obedient child. Always doing the 'done thing', apologising when (in hindsight) I shouldn't have been the one to. If I was asked told to do something by my parents, I did it. I was a goody two shoes at school (which resulted in bullying). If I had to sacrifice something I wanted because my sister's needs were greater, I did.

As a young child she was in and out of hospital for surgery quite frequently due to hip displaysia. Mum was with her and I stayed home with my dad or with paternal grandparents when he was working. So the scene of my parents needing to take care of her needs was always higher on the agenda from very early in her childhood.

The times where I did try and rally against the status quo, I was always the one who was in the wrong. I even had my sister's boyfriend try to stand up for me on the odd occasion.

I remember one night I refused to make my dad dinner. My mum and sister were out, I can't remember where now. I had just finished cooking mine and was about to plate up and eat. Dad walked in from work and demanded that I do him something there and then, but that night I refused. And ran to my grandma's house as I honestly thought he was going to beat me. Needless to say he worked out where I was and came to collect me. He didn't lay a hand on me but I was the one who apologised rather than him for scaring me witless. I was in my early teens.

My sister by contrast had an older boyfriend, got pregnant at 16. And if my parents didn't do as she expected them to or when they tried laying down the law with her, she would threaten them with not seeing their grandchild.

My relationship with my dad changed when I was 13 and refused to go out with him one day. I don't remember why I refused, I really didn't want to go. He grew more distant with me from then on.

I went on to eventually meet and marry dh. We've got children together inc the first grandson in a long while in our family. I thought that might change things. Except my sister had got pregnant for the 3rd time and those dc are 5 months apart. She then needed them due to the breakdown of her relationship and we were sidelined. I was struggling with a very needy baby and pnd. We've since learned ds1 likely has additional needs and are going through the whole mill of finding out what does/doesn't work and waiting for various hospital appointments. They all disagree and think we are too soft on him and need to be more firm. The children respond when they have seen their grandparents that "nanny is always shouting" at them.

Dh has long felt that my parents are favouring my sister over me. We've been together 10 years. At one time he appeared to be favoured son in law, but now my sister's ex is out of the way they treat dh with the same contempt exbil got.

He feels my sister always has to have a crisis to take any attention my parents my be showing me away and turn it back to her. E.g. Not allowing her own not-ex-then-but-is-now-dh to be at the birth of their 3rd child but having mum instead. When she had already made it clear to me that she would be a very reluctant back up birth partner for me when I was 39 weeks pregnant and dh was in hospital. We had a labour scare. Thankfully dh and I were both out of hospital and ds1 ended up arriving a few days later than edd.

Dh has also reminded me today of the amount of money they 'borrowed' from a trust fund to save their business. The verbal information I was given at the time (too young to know or say anything) was that I would receive the money back with interest. Needless to say I haven't and my sister's money was never touched.

And yes, I really do need to talk to a therapist about all this!

Hi all!
prozac
I don't remember her ever crying when I was a child. She got angry, not sad, as far as I could tell. She seemed to start with the crying around the same time as I moved away from home. I hate it when she cries.

Call me a bitter old cynic but I think your mother knows that you hate it when she cries. It sounds like she switched tactics when you left home - she perceived that with you living in your own place, bullying you would become less effective, so she moved to trying to guilt trip you. This is one of the most head-wrecking bits of the abuse IMO - my mother was like that too, only showed her "true colours" a couple of times, once I left home.

minisoks I read somewhere that the way to be a happy/decent parent is to be a happy/decent person, and then parent. That's the thing, isn't it? When you've got unresolved trauma it leaks out, somehow.
I've been reading The Angry Book this week, you might like it. The guy argues that unless you express anger, in a healthy way (immediately, honestly, taking responsibility for your feelings, using non-violent language), it sort of builds up and comes out in unhealthy ways. It was like a shopping list of every problem I have. @serioussteve you'd like this book as well. He argues that abused children lose the ability to recognise and express their anger so early that they don't even know it's missing. It was really good.

CofusedaboutChildhood I'm starting to convince myself that its all in my head, that it wasn't that bad This is exactly where I am at now. I really feel your pain as I am struggling to understand why the past is affecting me so much. I have no kids in my case, so it isn't anything to do with that

toomuchtooold he argues that abused children lose the ability to recognise and express their anger so early that they don't know it is missing my abuse from my DF started when I was about 2 but I grew int oa very angry child. At times I was afriad to express it but then i started self harming as a means of release...My issue isn't not feeling anger. The issue for me is believing maybe I don't have the right to feel that anger? My head keeps telling me that the abuse could not have been that bad or damaged me. Does the self doubt ever go away?

Oh, thanks to those who suggested i contact NAPAC- I emailed them and they suggested some resources such as HAVOCA and The Survivors Trust. Don't know if anyone on here has any experiences with these resources. I may be getting a new therapist in a few months- MBT therapy. Current therapist I just can't talk to about this stuff. I feel like I really need a therapist who understands long term abuse. The MBT is primarily for BPD issues but i feel that BPD is only part of it- i really believe the trauma is something I need help with. I looked into EDMR but was told I was nowhere near ready but they were willing to take me on if I let them do some preparatory work. i am stil thinking of it...Anyone on here tried EDMR?

Hate so much about my life right now, so much so have started self harming again. Don't see any way out either.

Thanks for the book link @toomuchtooold . I'm presently reading https://www.amazon.co.uk/THERE-NOTHING-WRONG-YOU-Compassionate/dp/0971030901/ref=pdsimm142??encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=R3RAJ4G11E9RKHVJQWVK , its very good.

Imback in that book (and Pete Walker as well, in The Tao of Fully Feeling) he also talks about getting angry at the wrong things, like getting angry only in situations where you know you are safe, the people love you... or road rage, getting angry in the car because you're anonymous... I don't know if you relate to any of that?
I have massive amounts of toxic shame and guilt whenever I get angry. The book helped a bit in that he explains/argues that e.g. with your kids, they will often prefer the honest expression of anger that goes along with boundary enforcing to being ignored, that they need you to be your authentic self... I want to read more about that, I want to have some security that my anger's not toxic, find healthy ways of giving vent to it. If I feel like I'm expressing it in a healthy way I'll empowered to tell my inner critic to fuck off with the guilt when I get angry. Does that make any sense?

Steve I'm really sorry that things are so crap for you right now. . Man, you really deserve a break.

I've ordered the book thanks toomuch.

I've also just had a visit from the parents. It was wonderful! 🙄. I did tell them to leave, which was refused. They won't acknowledge at all how I feel they have treated me differently, it hasn't happened like that in their view and is "just how [I] feel so can now be put aside" (quoted). So no acknowledgement that it has had a deep and lasting impact all.

They've completely verbally assassinated dh. Dh and I have had issues in the past which we have now overcome and we are both in pretty much the same place, small things but you have to put some work into a relationship. But for my dad to call dh a chauvinist is laughable, given he is as bad, if not worse than any of dh's chauvinistic tendencies. The silly thing is, dh knows how important it has been for me to have a relationship with my parents so has put up with the feeling that they don't like him, belittle him. For me.

minisok

Do seek out a therapist.

Why is having a relationship with these people so very important to you?.

I would certainly limit all forms of contact with your parents from now on. Your children say that their nanny is always shouting at them and your DH is being belittled by your dad. Having any sort of relationship with these people is costing your own family very dearly indeed and they are not going to thank you at all for facilitating that relationship. Your seeking their approval still (not that they would ever give this to you) is costing you all very dearly. Are you hoping that one day they will say sorry and will change?.

Your parents as well have done the usual buck passing type of responses beloved of toxic people; of course you were treated differently from your sister (and likely still are as well). Your funds from that trust fund were used to prop up their business and you will never see that again. Such people really never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Because they are family. It's the only answer I have. I think I do keep hoping that one day someone will wake up and realise what's happening. The really sad thing is I can see my mum mirrored in what my dad says about me - going along with her husband, allowing his way to dominate. Ironic huh?

Dh is hopping mad as they've cornered me when they knew I'd be home alone.

And yes. Contact will be severely limited, withdrawn even. Dh and I have already discussed this.

I had it thrown at me that I 'moved out here, if I lived in x town then I could be popping in and out too ' (like my sister). My point was a) it's 10 minutes up the road, hardly the other end of the country b) they have always had an open invitation to visit and c) nearly every time I visit my parents, my sister is there and the few occasions she isn't, she always manages to phone/call in. Because I made plans to see my parents, it's not like she didn't know as I'm sure they would have told her.

Hi minisok,

re your comment:-

"Because they are family. It's the only answer I have. I think I do keep hoping that one day someone will wake up and realise what's happening".

Family, shamily. What does the word family mean to you anyway in relation to them?. That's not a reason nor even anywhere near being a good answer. You get more kindness from your wider social circle and strangers honestly. These people were not good parents to you as a child and they're not good grandparents or decent inlaws to your children and husband respectively. Why should they let alone you have to put up with your parents out of some notion of family?.

You are realising what is happening, your parents really do not think they have done anything wrong here with regards to you. They stole your share of the trust fund to prop up their failing business, character assassinate your DH and your children tell you that nanny always shouts of them.

Re your other comment:-

"The really sad thing is I can see my mum mirrored in what my dad says about me - going along with her husband, allowing his way to dominate. Ironic huh?"

We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents, this is precisely what they taught you. You are not your mother nor father though, you are a separate person from them and you do not have to follow them or their example meekly.

Certainly further limit all contact with your parents, they are not doing any of your family unit any good at all. It sounds like they are well in hock to your sister anyway at your overall expense; she is the golden child here.

Hi, sorry, I am so impossibly bad at keeping up with this thread. I'm afraid it moves a little too fast for me, but I wanted to place mark here on the new one to see if I could manage to read occasionally.

Just finished reading the Nina Brown self-absorbed book. Think it was pretty useless for me, but I kept reading it because it promised to provide keys to interacting with the parents and protecting your children. Unfortunately the answer seemed to just be don't be a narcissist yourself, which is what the whole book seemed to assume would happen if you have a narcissistic parent. But it got me questioning myself, am I a narcissist too? The whole thesis is that a narcissist doesn't notice their self-absorbed behaviours, so it's almost impossible to refute the possibility. I think I may have gotten one technique out of it though, to reflect the narcissistic parent's feelings/concerns back to them. I admit I've never tried this. I tend to try to avoid the issue and/or explain why I can't do what they want, and the explaining is always a bad idea. Perhaps just saying "So you want me to go out and buy that this week" or something would help? I'm worried it will just open the conversation in the same way explaining does. Has anyone actually tried this?

Will try to come back and read thread (or at least last few pages, which is all I may be able to do regularly).

Hi all, just catching up with the new thread.
Had a family party recently and my mum was there. I haven't heard from since Christmas which was quite nice. She completely ignored me but made a point of speaking to my DH. Think she was trying to get a reaction out of me but I just acted as if I hadn't noticed. Had a lifetime of game playing and manipulation and I don't intend to get drawn into it any more. I think I've now accepted that any relationship I have with her is at an end. She's not my mother, she's just the person who begrudgingly looked after me growing up. Not really sure how I feel about it all now. Just a bit sad and a bit lost. There was a time when I would have given anything for her to act like a mother. Now I couldn't care less what she does. Not really sure what to do with myself now I'm finally free. Thought everything would all fall into place once she was out of my life, I guess it just takes time.

So I'm seeing a counsellor, just one session with her so far. It's been a week and due to see her again on Friday but some of her comments keep repeating in my head.

She's astounded at level of emotional abuse, with the sexual assault on top she considers me to be very guarded, a brick wall up to shield my emotions. She considers me a thinker, someone who has and will read in depth but will always try to give the "right" answer. She thinks I need to get angry, pissed off and let the hurt out.

Only problem is I don't know how. My parents never taught me about brushing my teeth, or took me to a dentist. Cue a dentist tearing me a new asshole when I went as an adult. You can gather how much I went back. I'm due to go tomorrow and just know I'll get the shit looks and snide comments.

The only way I know to express how I really feel is through music. And words. It's so damned hard to express decades of pain - I even struggle expressing things to my OH. There's this inherent fear of being hurt. It's like I'm a small child again, constantly seeking approval - and it being denied - and love - and it not being expressed. I've no clue how to break this cycle. 30+ years of shit on top of shit on top of shit. Something has to give, I'm really concerned the impact this psychological pressure is having on my health. Even wonder sometimes in the dead of night - when I think, relate to music, write - if anyone would miss me if I wasn't here.

Not sure the point of this post!

Sleepy you might find that your emotions about your mother/your upbringing are up and down for a time, while you grieve - it depends on the person (I don't think I grieved at all). And then there is dealing with the impact on you, how it messed with your head. But you already have plenty on your plate for now with a small baby and a toddler so like you say it all takes time. I have to say, you sound remarkably on top

...remarkably on top of things for someone with a near-newborn and going through nonsense with an abusive mother! Pressed too soon

You are right, I am not my parents. I consciously try very hard not to be. I know right now I'm not doing too great a job at that.

I've been going over this morning and I do wonder what it would take to show my parents that this is serious. But they'll see my refusal to get back in my box as temporary, something to be squashed.

I have taken my mother's contact details off the dc's school records.

I have also spoken to dh. When I was a teen and bullied mercilessly at school I had to see an ed psych. I ended up stooping going because I felt he was trying to blame my parents for me being bullied by my peers. I am going to ask for my medical records from that period to see what actually went on file from him.

mini
I do wonder what it would take to show my parents that this is serious

You might not ever be able to convince them you're serious but the nice thing about being an adult is that you can act without their permission. Ultimately you can tell them this or that till they're blue in the face, you don't need to wait until they listen or accept your point of view before you go off and do what you want to do.

Right also, sorry for spamming up the thread but I just wanted to ask whether some people are still interested in a private forum? If you are, would you mind indicating on here or PMing me? Thanks!

Morning. Yes, I don't need their permission. I need to remember that, or their approval.

The last few days have been crazy. But I feel a whole heap lighter than I ever have done. I don't think I've ever realised how heavy this has weighed on me, probably because it's always been there. I've grown up knowing no different.

Thanks toomuch. There's another thread on relationships about not really knowing who you are. Been reading through this and a lot of it resonates. Once I'm feeling a bit better, I think I'll start looking at my own life and what I want from it instead of living according to her.
steve how are you feeling today. Sounds like you are on a bit of a downward spiral. It's tough going through everything yet again with another counsellor. Do you feel like you need to get your anger out? Getting angry terrifies me. I think that I've suppressed it for so long that I don't know what to do when I'm angry. I'm scared I'll do something I'll regret.

Hi everyone

Just checking in, reading the latest posts about books.. I"m about half way through Toxic Parents, have already downloaded the Self-Absorbed one, and have a long reading list, aiming for one a month

This is in the absence of access to therapy on the NHS - have been assessed 2/3 times now by clinical psychologists who say that I could either have ASD/borderline/bipolar traits or something like PTSD. Unlikely to get another appointment within 6 months and trying to find something private yet affordable (wow, private therapy is expensive..)

Thanks for everyone who posts here in the meantime, as it's so empowering knowing I am not alone and the advice given often helps me even if the situation is completely different toomuch - how would ia private forum work?

Am struggling this week with knowledge around a family member who is the golden sibling (I would say I am the scapegoat). They seem to have it all - a wide, exciting social circle and diary of events - weddings, birthdays, going out (despite my perception of them as someone who is quite cold and rejecting to me, they seem to have huge charisma with just about everyone else), their kids are doing amazingly in every way and have bright futures.. while I still feel stuck somewhere between the age of about 4 and 18 most of the time, with this sense of being wrong no matter what I do, very very alone and undesirable, and jealous if I'm being honest. Does anyone else have this - the golden child seeming to soar? This family member seems to me to be so ruthless and yet like some kind of social magnet, whereas I try to be 'nice' and end up messing up no matter what I do, I just don't have the same social skill set.