"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Houses were brown generally. Brighter colours didn't come in until the 50s and I don't remember many people who actually bought the colourful retro stuff fashionable now. Even in the 70s - 80s, having in-yer-face colours was seen as hippy. Non conformist.And I don't remember a general do it yourself store for the lay person to choose wallpaper etc until - 1980s ? So most houses probably were brown and cream - especially if decorated by [ repressed ] men. My DS was the only child in my set who wore colours. 4 year olds in shirts - and ties . Poor things. He ate a lot of dirt as well.

My learning lately is that I find I can't remember much at all about home life. I can remember school, Everything I did in the summer holidays [ I was sent off to extended family/ 'exchange visits' to strangers. Got into some right scrapes, not helped by being easily led and a convent school girl ] from the age of 12. Now I find they are the happy interesting memorable episodes in an otherwise pretty blank existence - I did go off by myself a lot. I remember these times on the bike, with the dog etc. I even remember working at weekends etc [ from age 14] clearly.
In between, bits and pieces but not much. And this is till I left home at 18. I presume that this is dissociation ?? I do know that I wanted to grow up because home wasn't happy - so maybe to shut down was a way to get by.

Unfortunately I still shut down sometimes, to give myself ' head space' - luckily DH does as well. Sometimes even if I know I shouldn't. Hence the labels daydreamer, vague, not listening - not good

Oh treacle I'm sorry, was that my reply? I don't want to make you feel anxious. Please tell me if you want me to stop replying to you, I don't want to be triggering you. I mean it might be good if feelings start coming back but it should be at your own pace.
It is interesting though, getting that feeling. I wonder what you think about it?

spare
Yep when Grannon said that thing about looking for reasons and not finding them it was like my ears pricked right up. And as you say, you try and apply reason to it, like if the other person's not done anything wrong you can't very well react, so what else is there to do but squash it down? I find it a massive help to be able to just say "this is an emotional flashback" because it lets me acknowledge the feeling without having to act on it.
What you're saying about unjust situations, I get the same feeling I think when there is a situation where someone believes something that's wrong and I'm going to have to try to put them right. I get really anxious and review my arguments over and over and test them to destruction.
One that gives me the absolute chills is when someone is horrible with a smile on their face. I think my mother did that a lot. I saw a comedian a few years ago and she dealt with a heckler like that, just really calmly and smilingly slapped him down and I couldn't look at her for the rest of the show, I was just waiting for it to be over.

Hi all, I've started a new thread, as we're nearly at the 1000 mark.

It might not sound it but it's all good Toomuch, I actually felt anxious as in felt the emotion and I felt like running away from it within a split second. I was uncomfortable for a mini moment then realised that's got to be 'flight', it must be. I was okay, it didn't last long and it soon passed.

It's hard for me to explain, I didn't enjoy the anxiety at the time but I am pleased that I actually felt the emotion because even though I can't explain it at least now I know what it does feel like mentally (not just physically). I'm extra pleased that I felt what I am assuming is 'flight'. I would usually freeze, and now I can compare the two (both not nice) but I hate feeling frozen, it makes me feel like a non-person. Feeling anxious and feeling like running away might not exactly be healthy given the circumstances but I felt it so it's in there somewhere.

I didn't reflect until this morning, I was so pleased about feeling the anxiety and the flight that It didn't click that I'd experienced a trigger until I replayed it. It think it was the whole situation that triggered it, I'd been out with OH and friends, stayed out longer than planned, was very relaxed, walking home in the dark after a fab night and then thought I'd check up on the thread, somehow the whole thing added together and then seeing I had a reply (but not what the reply was) brought back memories of the feeling of going 'home' when I lived with my parents. I 'think' it was the fear of the unknown. Because if that's how I had to sum up what it was/is like going home / meeting up with mother, it is the fear of the unknown. This might seem really weird but I even got a slight familiar smell memory from our old house, it was of pine toilet cleaner, it could even be possible that as we were walking home at that exact moment I opened the page I'd walked past a pine tree, there are a lot round where we live and it had been raining very heavily. Either that or my memory can recall smells too.

I don't want you to stop replying, your care and insight is keeping me sane. I need the triggers, I'm in a safe place with safe people around me. Chris Evans (Radio 2) triggered me the other day and a week or so ago I got a trigger from settling down to watch Persons of Interest, that triggered a flashback about being flicked with wet tea towels

Treacle it was a flashback like that that started me posting on this thread. I didn't know then that that was what it was.

I read Toxic Parents about 18 months ago and had started lurking here and realising my M wasn't the person I'd thought she was, but that was as far as it had got. Then my M got a new phone and discovered how to text (I think I've mentioned she's very technophobic so that's why she's 10 years behind with the texting). And I got a text from her out of the blue about someone she'd met in my home town from my childhood that she thought I ought to remember.

One of the things that has always annoyed me about my M is that she seems to want to keep me at about age 12. So I know it's normal for mothers to reminisce, but with mine it's as though she doesn't see who I really am, it's like she moulded me to be a certain way and she's going to keep pretending to herself that I am the person she wanted to make, not the person I really am. And constantly referring to people I don't remember and expecting me to care about them seems to me to be part of that.

So when I got the text I got that horrible sinking feeling you describe, like I'm getting pulled back into a nightmare. Exactly as you said, the same feeling when you have to go back home and it just feels really really wrong.

A sensible person would just have ignored the text, or sent a non-committal reply. The 'old' me would have tried to remember the person to appease my M (fawn response?) whilst wanting desperately to get away (flight) from the feeling. But instead I decided to be assertive, so I texted back and suggested that if she wanted to discuss old friends it'd be better to ring rather than text as texting was a bit slow for proper conversations. If I'm being honest I said that because I think I can manage visits and phone calls (after a fashion) because I can be prepared for them, but the thought of her pinging into my life at random times via text, with the accompanying nightmare feeling, really freaked me out.

I thought I'd done rather well, but the next thing that happened was I got an email from DSis saying my M had turned up to visit really distraught, thrust her phone at DSis and said Spare had been rude and upset her by telling her what she could and couldn't use texts for. DSis was pretty annoyed with me in the email as she'd got all the grief. This was a good week after the incident.

Long story short, DSis and I have talked it over since at length and agreed that neither of us will play flying monkey if this happens again to either of us. I realised I maybe could have worded my reply to my M more gently (although not much more gently, and I stand by the sentiment) and she's realised that our M was trying to set us against each other and that she shouldn't have fallen for it. To be fair she has other stuff (unrelated to this) going on in her life right now and maybe overreacted herself.

Also I have had only v brief texts from my M since about arrangements and stuff like that, so in that sense it worked. I think it was the first time in 50 years that I actually openly disagreed with her rather than being nice in her presence but then doing my own thing in my own life, which is what I usually do, so I feel quite proud of that in a way - I set a boundary and that was a good thing.

And of course it brought me here and got me reading a lot of stuff and that's all good too.

But it was only when I read your last post that I realised that was a flashback. Next time I hope I'll be able to take Toomuch's advice and just tell myself 'this is a flashback' before I react.

Gosh Spare , she really did make a meal out of something and nothing. The bonkers thing is wouldn't most mothers of grown up children be chuffed to bits if they had an invite for a chat rather than a quick text? but yes, I can see how suggesting an alternative would lead to that, it's seen as criticising.

I can get how you can handle a pre arranged visit over a text, mine doesn't text me but if she did I'd feel she could reach me anywhere, I'd never feel safe. I have privacy issues when it comes to my mum too though, she was a rooter and would pry in my bedroom and listen in to my phone calls. When I was young I used to set traps in my room so I'd know if she'd been in whilst I was out. Even as a grown up I'd rush round the house closing all the doors and moving anything she could sneak a peek at (especially letters) before she visited. I've only just realised that this isn't normal.

Hello. I haven't posted here before but I have read so much, and gained so much perspective and support from others who have also sadly had to experience the stresses and sadness of having a dysfunctional family. I'm sorry that my first post is a needy one but I'm really struggling at the moment. I'm scared of saying anything identifying so I will have to be vague but I'm wondering whether anyone has had a similar experience and could possibly help me to cope with this situation. Just understanding what is going on, or knowing that other people have lived through similar situations would really help. I feel so isolated right now and my friends in Normal Family Land just wouldn't get it.

So I'm nearly 40 and one of three siblings. Very dysfunctional family. Emotionally abusive and neglectful parents. One very damaged sibling who alternates between being very toxic and playing the victim (he has always been very open about his struggles but also very open in his blame towards other people - currently me - and will say anything to get some sympathy). Other sibling, Golden Child, has always been treated very, very differently and is happy, confident, high-achieving, has high self-esteem etc (lucky her) and has never really acknowledged the family problems. I have had anxiety and depression for as long as I can remember but I haven't told anybody. I just try my best to cope by myself and have over the last decade or so just tried to keep my distance from them all. The less contact with them the better (for my mental health and sanity). I am low contact with my parents, no contact with T/V sibling. Regular contact with Golden Child but I have always found it hard, although I try to act like everything is OK between her and me (I didn't want to feel like I'd failed at yet another family relationship I think so just kept everything inside).

Long story short - I have opened up to Golden Child for the first time about my problems and my feelings towards the others and I'm really floored by her response. This was triggered by her suggesting that everyone get together for two weeks - we haven't all been together for years and the thought of it just literally makes my blood run cold. She has talked about V/T sibling and me staying in separate hotels but basically being together in the same area (we live hundreds of miles away from each other at the moment which is a blessing). I have said that I can't face it and why. I've also told her that it would also put strain on the relationship between me and her (GC) as it is so painful seeing DF and DM and other sibling behaving so differently towards her. I understand that it's really important to GC that we are all together (and I feel very, very guilty for not wanting it to go ahead) and I know a lot of this angst is down to my jealousy of her but I know that it will cause so much stress and anxiety for me. She says that this is all a huge shock and she's responded with so much anger and hostility. She seems to be in complete denial about everything and is quite openly saying that it's all in my head and that it's my distancing myself from them that's causing problems.

I am left feeling really vulnerable and exposed and wishing I hadn't opened up to her. I felt I had to as she just wouldn't take no for an answer regarding this get-together. I'm also doubting myself and feeling like I've been completed pushed out and isolated, like I'm the problem and they're all getting on brilliantly. Maybe they are (they weren't before I distanced myself, I lived through years of horrible arguments and massive fall-outs between them). How can they all be getting on now when it was so tense and difficult before? I wish I could give more details so I could explain the toxicity and dysfunction but it would be too identifying. Has anyone else experienced anything like this before? I feel like I've been made the scapegoat and everyone else is making more effort and behaving normally now that I'm out of the way (they can just say that it was me that was the problem). I'm doubting myself and just feeling so low at the moment. Maybe I am just a jealous, bitter fuck-up. I thought she'd be sympathetic if I actually ever opened up to her but she's just so angry and dismissive. I know she's really disappoionted about the get-together (and I know it's important to her) but there's just no sympathy or empathy about the family relationshiops whatsoever. I'm feeling really confused and just feel so worthless right now.

Sorry it's so long. TIA for any thoughts.

They won't be getting on brilliantly, don't worry about that. There may be a brief unnegotiated truce, but that's all.
It may be that once your sister has had time to absorb your revelations she is more understanding ( optimistic) but golden children are often complicit in ignoring the inequality of the way they are treated. It is after all usually pretty starkly different, and if they have internalised the idea that they deserve better than other siblings the anger and denial reaction is standard first base. just as you, as scapegoat, are looking at the problem and wondering if it's your fault, ( absolutely the role / reaction of the scapegoat)

I don't think you you need to worry about outing yourself with details. Sadly there are a lot more of us in similar boats than you might think.
In fact ...I bet she's organising a family get together for.. lets say, An anniversary for your parents? Celebrating their abiding co dependence would be hugely galling, but perfect golden child territory.
She'll probably be casting herself in the role of organiser, gift giver with a big dose of
(Self serving) martyr thrown in. She would use it to show off her superior wealth, social status, taste, child rearing skills..whatever..
Maybe your brother will have to be "managed", because he will resist being organised, to the the extent he will frequently absent himself inconveniently, get drunk, and possibly occasionally violent. ( Your job / fault?)
You will be assigned endless unachievable tasks (such as brother minding) which will serve to isolate you from most of the events and people attending and put you in the firing line for criticism whilst boosting the status of the golden child by comparison.
How am I doing?..
I may be miles off, but the basics, the way the family dynamic sets you up to be knocked down? I bet I'm on the money there.
This is nothing to do with your value, or ability to cope..they are...playing a game, so old now in your family that they don't even have to explain the rules. You are enmeshed because you think you can..not win exactly, but not loose badly? But the truth is, you can decide not to play at all. You can change the rules ( ah recognise the ructions and anger from other players as you try that)
And...this is my favourite..you can declare yourself the winner!
Your life, your goalposts.. put them where the fuck you want to.
So please don't be down on yourself, you may not feel like a winner today, but you should, because you are.

Hi Isolated. I also lurked for a long time before coming on here, but I've found it really helpful and supportive and I hope you do too.

I don't think, sadly, it's in your GC DSis's interests to acknowledge your pain because that would threaten her position as GC. But although it probably doesn't feel like it at the moment, I think you've done a very brave thing in saying you aren't happy with the two-week thing. (Personally I can't manage more than 24 hrs with my M so 2 weeks would be my idea of purgatory too.)

Stick to your guns. You are not 'the problem'. You are feeling bad at the moment because you've made a positive step towards being your own person, and that is something that will rattle other people. But it's your feelings and needs that count, not theirs.

Thank you so much 665. You almost took my breath away with some of your guesswork...

That bit about it being my fault if my brother reacted badly to it all (and it absolutely used to be my responsibility to manage him, not my job now we're NC though hopefully, but I wouldn't be surprised...) - wow, spot on.

I will have to keep re-reading your words, they are really striking a chord with me. It feels quite powerful. I'm not used to anyone IRL even remotely getting where I'm coming from.

I just can't understand the complete denial from GC though. My brother has been so open about the affect his childhood (well, all my DP's parenting actually) has had on him and golden child has always been so sympathetic to him. I keep it to myself for 40 years and she denies it ALL and tells me I'm crazy! It's just so confusing. I'm so disappointed and shocked. I thought she'd be more understanding. Why was she more understanding to my DB (who she knows has been a complete nightmare before) but had zero sympathy for me? I know I'm spoiling her 'look at my perfect family' get-together but surely I deserve some sympathy? I've never asked for anything from her. I just don't understand.

When you said about the family dynamics - "the way the family dynamic sets you up to be knocked down" - OMG yes. I can't win. They've set up a Messenger 'family' group FFS. They know DB and me are NC (and have been for a couple of years). It's awful. My heart sinks every time I get a message from any of them, particularly my DB. And seeing my DB being so bloody affectionate with them is so hard. He's like a different man. He used to say all his problems were down to our parents (he wasn't wrong, although he has behaved appallingly too). Now he's all kisses and 'love you' messages... I so want to leave the group but I can't can I, because then it will just reinforce that they're right - I'm the problem, I'm evil, they're all just fine. Sigh...

Your last few lines leave me a bit gobsmacked though (in a good way!). "Your life, your goalposts...put them where the fuck you want to." Wow. I don't feel like I can do that though. I want to be part of that happy family. Golden Child tells me they're all getting on marvellously. I just don't get it. I know it's hard to explain on a forum like this, but I really don't deserve this, I've tried sooooo hard with them all. I just got to the point where I couldn't carry on with all the drama surrounding DB (I always felt responsible for his happiness, and he always blamed me for not doing enough for him, even though I did more for him than anyone else did by a long shot). I've just distanced myself. I'm not causing all the drama and hurt that DB did. Why don't I deserve some understanding? Sorry for the woe is me bit. This is such a horrible time.

Thanks again for your reply 665

Thank you SpareBedroom . I do think I'll find this place so helpful. I just don't feel like I can talk about these things IRL. Most people don't understand how families can be anything other than loving and caring

I feel like such a loser when GC sister literally cannot understand one bit of why I wouldn't want to spend two weeks with them. She can't get enough of them. I want to feel that resilient and optimistic. They've all just worn me down over the decades and I can only imagine tension, stress and disappointment when I see them. I know there will be moments when it will be OK but the bad times won't be far away.

Bloody families

Hi isolated I don't post much here any more, I have been NC with my narcissistic mother for 3 years, but I pop in from time to time and often read.
665's advice is spot on. Why doesn't your GC sister feel sympathy for you n the way she does for your brother? Because I think, he is the SC, the fuck up, and you are the coper. If you don't play your role (and take the heat off her) then it fucks with the dynamics, throws her off kilter. The status quo suits her and anything else is terrifying.
But 665 is right, you can choose a different life. You don't have to keep playing these dysfunctional games forever.

Leave the messenger group, seriously. So, they'll blame you? Who cares? They do that anyway. I know you desperately want to be part of (what they are pretending at the moment) that "happy" family, but it's all an illusion built on years of dysfunction and weirdness. It isn't the happy family you want and it can't eer be, no matter how you contort yourself, the only result is you twist yourself into such a mess to try to please them (impossible) that you erase yourself completely. Been there, t-shirt bought. You have to create a different life for yourself, break free and leave them scrabbling about in their dysfunction.
It's so hard, I really feel for you, but you have to do things differently if you want a different response.
Have you read the Toxic Parent book?

isolated I agree with the others. (I'm pretty clueless about all the sibling dynamics stuff as I'm an only kid. My BIL gave us a bit of drama a few years ago and it totally blindsided me as I'm used to the dysfunction coming from the older generation).

It's natural that you want validation from your family of origin, as you are attached to them, and because they are the only people who witnessed what happened to you as a child. And you're right - having tried this hard with people, you deserve a bit of recognition, you deserve love, kindness - you deserve that stuff anyway, you shouldn't have to work for it, it should come naturally from your parents. But either way, you won't get it. You have your role which as the others have said is to be the coper, and in order for your parents and sister to keep feeling good about themselves, it's important for them that they pretend that role doesn't exist, that you're all just normal and what are you complaining about. Victim brother appears for now to have chosen to be the sick one - he can behave badly now and still get sympathy, while your parents get to feel that because he is properly not right in the head, that's got nothing to do with him. He's sort of neutralised himself. I can imagine that this might sort of push you into the scapegoat role more. They still need someone to blame, and with your brother back in the fold, that's going to be you.

The guilt you feel, the responsibility for everyone else's feelings - that's programmed in, you've been doing the job for so long. But think on this: if they are right that you're the problem, and they're all so happy... why is your sister so upset that you don't want to come? Why do they need you there if they're all so fucking happy? Your sister will say something like "oh I just want all the family to be together" but if it was just that, if you said no they'd be a bit regretful but they wouldn't push you.

Hey also everyone there is a new thread as we're about to hit 1000. Cheers!

Hi Isolated stick with this thread because I am sure it will help you immensely - it certainly has me. Sadly admitting that you have a fucked-up family and might actually be better off without your parents/siblings seems to be the last taboo IRL - people generally just don't get it and start reeling out crap like 'you only get one mum'. 'life is too short' etc... I've found that unless you are talking to somebody who has been there, you may as well just not talk about it at all, other than to say 'we're not close' and then change the subject.

I would also leave the messenger group, unfollow them on FB, etc etc. It's all bollocks and a big facade to keep the illusion of a happy family going. You know it's bollocks and you are just torturing yourself by looking at it all.

A quote that has stuck with me is that "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." So with that in mind - why not try something different and see what happens? It's a big step to walk away from your birth family, no matter how crap they all are, so you could think of it as an experiment and set a time in your head (3 months?) to go v low contact or no contact, and see how you feel at the end of that. I am now six weeks in of NC with my mother, and although it feels strange, and I am constantly posting on here asking for opinions/advice, I am having real, amazing moments of clarity and joy where I suddenly feel free and actually, genuinely happy.

My situation differs from yours in that I also have a GC sister, but when I finally spoke to her about it she agreed with me completely - I think mainly because I had noticed that our mother is trying to cause divisions with my sister's DC by setting them up against each other as a SG and GC - and my sister said she's worried about that too.

The only thing is, since that conversation, my sister seems to have gone back to 'normal' with our M - as in still sees her a lot, whereas I have cut her off completely. Which feels strange for me, and disappointing tbh, but I am trying to not second-guess what's actually being said and done and will wait and see what happens.

You can have the happy family you want, but they will never be it. It will be made up of people of your choosing who treat you with the love and respect you deserve.

I also recommend reading on the subject - I've been doing a lot of that and it really helps to understand it. So far I've read Toxic Parents and The Peaceful Daughter's Guide to Separating from a Difficult Mother - the latter really helped me clarify everything in my head and was probably my 'watershed' moment when I knew there was no going back. I've also bought the Pete Walker book 'From Surviving to Thriving' but have only thumbed through that one so far.

You will get there

Golondrina thank you for replying . Sorry to hear about your narc mother...

OMG is my DB the scapegoat? I have always been someone who just gets on with stuff. But they're all so nice to my DB since he and I became NC. I feel as though everyone is blaming me. It's like they've all strengthened their relationships since me and DB became NC. Why with him and not me? I didn't do anything wrong, I just stopped putting up with his emotional blackmail. Why isn't he ostracised because of the shocking things that he said about everyone? I just stopped taking the blame for his unhappiness. I don't understand.

You're absolutely right that the status quo suits my GC sister. I can't understand the denial about it all though. I don't think I've ever been in denial about anything, I'm too anxious!

I know that in theory I can choose a different life, but I feel as though I'll always doubt myself. Why am I the one pushed out here? It's so hard to explain but DB has always been the toxic/dramatic/violent/aggressive child. Golden Child sister has had the easiest, most charmed life ever (and has an entitled attitude and is lacking in empathy - doesn't realise what an easy life she's had), and I am the one who put more effort than anyone (honestly) into helping DB. Why am I pushed out of the new happy family? Even DB would admit that I had done more than anyone else to help him. I'm so confused.

Your words about erasing myself completely have hit hard. That's what I did for almost 40 years. I am (was?) such a people-pleaser. I am not myself when I am around them, whether it's in the flesh or on Messenger etc. I'm pretending to be OK. Or pretending to be someone who can cope with all this better than I can. Opening up to GC sister didn't go well. I'm not sure I can deal with the backlash of leaving the Messenger group right now. Maybe when I'm feeling stronger.

I haven't read the Toxic Parent book. I struggle to find a label for my parents. I don't think they deliberately set out to hurt us, they just have no awareness of their actions or words. DF was very aggressive and cold but has mellowed. DM has no maternal instinct whatsoever and is cold and negative about everything but I don't think she set out to hurt us. She is really intolerant and unemotional and left me and DB in a very difficult and neglectful situation for many years when we were children (and so I've always felt like an adult caring for DB) but she didn't actively abuse us if that makes sense. I don't think she's toxic? Just a bloody awful mother. I know I try to do everything differently to how she did it.

I know no-one can answer these questions. Sorry for rambling on.

Unmumsnetty hugs to everyone who needs to be on this thread x

toomuchtooold thank you for replying. Your point about my DB being the sick one and therefore pushing the scapegoat role onto me really resonated. That felt really significant. I hadn't thought about that.And thank you for pointing out that if I was that insignificant why would my GC sister be so bothered about me not being included.

Thank you x

I just stopped putting up with his emotional blackmail.

I think this might explain why they are pushing you out and not DB. While his behaviour might be unpleasant, it doesn't fundamentally alter the power structure in the family, he's still in there interacting and playing his part. You on the other hand saw his emotional blackmail for what it was, told him, and drew him a boundary. (Good for you!) That's threatening to the dysfunctional family power structure. What if everyone started walking away from bad behaviour? The dysfunctional family structure would fall apart.

Also new thread new thread new thread

Thank you for your reply BadTasteFlump, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my rambling on.

Sorry to hear about your mum. That must be very difficult with your sister. My sister is in complete denial of any problem even though I told her how I felt. At least your sister sympathised (or is it even worse because she sympathised but has gone back to full contact?? Either way it's shit isn't it?) Has it affected your relationship with your sister? I feel as though it's an enormous stumbling block. I just find it so hard to ignore with my sister, it's like the elephant in the room.

The Peaceful Daughter's Guide to Separating from a Difficult Mother sounds absolutely spot-on! I want to do it without any drama (and without any blame). Shame the other siblings can't empathise.

I hope you have a good day

Isolated I really liked the 'Peaceful Daughter' book - it's definitely worth a look and isn't too daunting if that makes sense... Although I think it's almost impossible to avoid drama and blame - once these toxic people catch on to the fact that you're 'on to' them, they tend to step it up to pull you back in line. And with me that was when the shit hit the fan.... I'm still here though

TBH my sister and I have never been close, we've always had quite a superficial relationship, and I firmly blame our mother for that. She never encouraged us to get on as children, in fact she did the opposite and played us off against each other. But I live in hope that as my sister does seem to know our mother has 'issues', we can try and build a more healthy relationship. I have no idea if that will ever really happen though it's complicated with her still seeing our M.

I'm trying to tell myself that whilst it would be nice if my sister and I got closer, I will be ok if we don't - I've survived the last 40 odd years without it anyway...

I'm going to look at the peaceful daughter book, even though I have already separated, it sounds good. I have posted on the new thread, directed at isolated. I don't think there's a way to separate without drama unfortunately, all the players in the dysfunctional game have too much invested to let you just slip away.

Have also just posted on new thread