"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hopefully I can write something coherent at some point. I just don't have the strength right this minute after today's events and yet more drama involving dd and "dm". Just when I think a corner has been turned...

They go and surprise you again!

mylongawaited thanks, I'll take a look at that video
On the texts, I know it's not easy but what you need to do I think is let go of the hope that you can control what your mother says about you to other people. If you can stop caring - or stop acting like you care, anyway - she loses her control over you.

justagirl I don't think NAPAC have a forum, they have a helpline though - 0808 801 0331.
You said you can't blame all on the abuse, but imagine your life if you'd been treated with kindness as a child. Do you think you would be struggling with the problems you have now? We come out of childhood not at all ready to cope with the world, it causes problems of its own, and then we have to deal with all that on top.

pizza that's not normal family behaviour, and it's not loving family behaviour. I think your life would be easier if your mother knew less about it. Have you heard of "grey rocking"? It's where you just try and keep the conversation really light, and cheery, and boring, and don't give them any personal information that they can use to hurt you later. Although if she can cause a stushie about something as public as your DC's name... that's just no boundaries right there. It's fine for her not to like the name but she's not the parent, it's not up to her. I think mrwalken has it, it was probably not about the name at all.

ohtheroses I don't think you can ever draw a straight line from your
behaviour as a parent to how your kids turn out - all you can do is do your best and hope for the best. I might be way off the mark here and ignore me if I am, but I'm reading your comment "Sometimes I wonder how she'd have fared as my mother's daughter" and I'm wondering whether she's picked up on that, if there's a pressure coming from you to acknowledge her luck in being parented better than you, and for her to be OK, to turn out OK, to reflect that?

wearegoing Hi. Regarding your 4 relatives, are you worried about how much to share with them about what happened? Are you worried that they might be flying monkeys, and put pressure on you to get back in contact? If it comes up, you could just say something like "I'm not in contact with x, y and z any more, and I don't want to get into the ins and outs of it" and say it in a way that says "conversation finished". Not many people would be cheeky enough to push for more detail if you say that. And if they are that cheeky, you can be cheeky in return.

hake when I first posted on SH Attila said to me that LC almost always leads to NC because the abusive person, having had boundaries enforced, goes bloody mental trying to get your attention again (I'm paraphrasing) and starts behaving worse and worse. (As it happens my mother was one of the ones who disappears actually, I was prepared for lots of drama but it never came). I'm not saying go NC necessarily, but maybe block her on your phone, or divert to voicemail?

Ineed, feeling like a fraud is part of the deal. It's part of the abuse, that they convince us that we deserve everything we got. Talk to us when you want to .

Anyway time for a for me, and this week I'm thinking about anger. I am still reading Pete Walker's book (it's sort of on hiatus because I read Zadie Smith's Swing Time, that was excellent) and I've been nodding and sympathising along to old Pete about his inability to feel sadness and cry and then I thought "toomuch what are you on, you tear up when somebody gets 4 turns on The Voice!"
Sadness isn't my problem, I can feel that - it's anger, and to a lesser extent fear. So I'm away to read everything I can about anger.

First time post here and I'm really struggling today.

I left my my husband (divorce going through) last Easter. DD6 and I had to move back in with my parents as I had no job or money and we are sleeping in the dining room on the sofabed. We are here until the summer, whereupon we are moving far away to start a new life with my girlfriend (with lots of love and support from her family, who will be close by).

Growing up, my dad was and still is, I am discovering by reading these threads, a narc. Mother also abused by him but enables. Nasty things are beginning to bubbling up from memories and I have been seeing a great counsellor.

Before xmas he started picking on my little daughter. I have always tried very hard to be the parent he wasn't, always taken responsibility for my actions and feelings, always apologised if i have lost patience. She came to me and told me (as I have told her always to do) that he had told her to shut up, called her a stupid girl. In front of me he tapped her vindictively on the head for no reason. That sounds ridiculous I know but he had that look like if a toddler pinches a baby.

He was ashamed when she told me. He said it made him feel small. I told him to apologise to her and her said sorry but that she had wound him up. I can't believe I didn't protect her. I stood by, terrified, like when I was a kid. I did what my mother did and let him go after my kid.

The worst things he has said or done have been not in front of my mother. She was in hospital over Xmas and he was a nightmare. Luckily DD was with her dad. Refusing to do any household jobs, having an episode of stress incontinence in the night. It was all about him. He said he wanted me to give him "more cuddles" as he felt so sad. I refused and he sulked for days as I was refusing "even though it would make me feel better". But he attributed my not wanting to hug him to me being a lesbian so I got away with it and he backed off.

He is always over the top and too much with my daughter. Has been inappropriate with me in the past. I don't like how he is with her. Last week i was impatient with him because my daughter hurt herself and although i was comforting her he rushed out to make a huge fuss and i said "No Dad, it's fine." Cue a huge row about how I am keeping him from his granddaughter. Told me basically that everyting is fine when i am not around. He has not spoken to me since.

This all looks totally mad written down. I had promised my daughter's dad that I wouldn't move away before the end of term so that she could finish the school year. I am waiting for our old family home to be sold so I have money (any week now). I don't know what to do. I am failing my daughter.

Ended up in hospital last night s many things inmy brain coming to surface. massively triggered again and feeling lost and ashamed. They let me go without a section only on proviso that someone from Crisis Team sees me today. They coming round in two hours. My friends think I'm being a drama queen, throwing tantrums because I am not getting enough attention but it is so much more than that. I can't even begin to explain why I feel this way so often

toomuchtooold yes, I think life would have been different had I been treated with kindness. I certainly would have turned out a halfway decent person maybe. I was brought up to believe any acknowledgement of deep pain was self pity and I feel this sharp jab in my chest like a finger poking me and saying "Others have had it so much worse. Stop being so silly. You are grieving God by not forgiving and forgetting."

Oh, and thanks for the number toomuchtooold. Bless you

justagirl484

Re the people who brought you up to believe that any pain was self pity; its not you its them. You were abused pretty much from the get go.

Those friends who are calling you a drama queen are infact anything but.

I sincerely hope the crisis team are of some use to you today.

Hi knitting nancy

No its not mad when it is written down. It is par for the course with being the adult child of a narcissist.

Ultimately you are going to have to keep your daughter and yourself well away from your narcissist father and his will enabler in your mother. I would go no contact with these people; they will harm your DD in similar ways to how you have been harmed by them. These people were not good parents to you and narcissistic people are at the very least deplorable grandparent figures. Such people tend to either over value or under value the relationship with the grandchild; in your case your DD is being overvalued.

Your bringing new life into the world did not fundamentally change your abusive parent into a loving family member. But adult children of narcissists (ACONs) seem to show a natural affinity for believing in this work of fiction. We have always wanted our parent to be loving to us, and now we want our parent to be a loving grandparent. What we want and what we end up with are two very different things as you have seen. Where we usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the narcissist to changing circumstances. And that is where you have tripped up here.

Hello all, I've posted here on and off over the years. I have a toxic DM and Dsis. DF is a useless enabler type.

My DD is 4. DM is the kind of narcissist who overvalues the relationship with her. I visit them about once a month and stay for the weekend. DM is extremely controlling and critical of me. Several times a day she'll be criticizing some aspect of my parenting whether it's her shoes being inadequately supportive of her feet, me not making sufficient efforts to vary her diet or whatever. It's literally trivia, all the time. Having had quite a bit of therapy (which has helped me a lot) I can mostly not let it bother me and ignore her.

But of course sometimes it does blow up when I reach the limit of my tolerance and it did this last weekend. Several times she went all controlling and when I stopped her from doing it and told her I make the rules for DD and that's that, she got all ragey with me and threw in some lies about what she had actually said to DD. It was one incident too many so I took DD and headed back home early.

So last night I get the apologetic text which I ignored then today I got the apologetic phone call. All crocodile tears of course about how sad she is and a long manipulative moan that made it all my fault really and how she's trying her best. She even managed to get in a dig about how we (us adult kids) are all 'the way we are' (she didn't elaborate on what she meant by that little stinger and I refused to take the bait and ask) because my DF doesn't talk about feelings. Nice.

Anyway, her ruse now is that she just doesn't know how she can cope with me for a whole weekend so next time we come to visit she will just go out of the house for the day and only come back for long enough to read DD a story or something like that. She kept trying to prod me into providing a solution but I didn't give her whatever reaction she was looking for. She doesn't like me having boundaries these days is basically what's going on.

Now I know that sensible people here are going to tell me to go LC or NC but I really don't know if I can do it. DD really loves her gran. She'd say she had a brilliant weekend. She doesn't notice virtually any of the crap I'm talking about, I keep it away from her. When she does observe it I explain to her quietly that DM is being grumpy and it's nothing to do with her and to just ignore her until it passes, or something like that.

What should I do? I really want to tell her to go get herself some therapy and when she's dealt with her stuff she'll discover that I'm not actually the antichrist and then we can have a polite if distant relationship and she can see DD (with me there always of course). This is a waste of time isn't it?

Polly,

re your comment:-
"My DD is 4. DM is the kind of narcissist who overvalues the relationship with her. I visit them about once a month and stay for the weekend"

What you write is typical of life within a narcissistic family structure; you are still a part of it.

You need to stop these visits with immediate effect, no two ways about it. It cannot happen any more. Your DD is being used by your mother as narcissistic supply and she will harm your child in not too dissimilar ways as to how you yourself were harmed as a child. You were trained by her to serve her and you are still doing this. They will try and steal the heart and mind of your child against you; these people are that devious and your DD has no idea she is really being manipulated and its all happening right in front of your very eyes. She wants to steal her from you. Your parents were not good parents to you (narcissists always but always need a willing enabler to help them) and they are exceedingly poor role models as grandparents.

This excerpt re narcissistic grandparents may be helpful to you:-
" Here are the facts of life: the malignant narcissist is still a malignant narcissist even after you give birth. The fundamental nature of your malignantly narcissistic parent is the same as it was when you were a child. (If not worse.) Due to no reason other than the fact that you brought a child into the world, your narcissist parent is now a narcissist grandparent. Your bringing new life into the world did not fundamentally change your abusive parent into a loving family member. But adult children of narcissists (ACONs) seem to show a natural affinity for believing in this work of fiction. We have always wanted our parent to be loving to us, and now we want our parent to be a loving grandparent. What we want and what we end up with are two very different things. Where we usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the narcissist to changing circumstances.

It is highly unlikely that your NPD parent will interact with your children in exactly the same way they did with you. At least, not in your presence. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. Which allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. From my personal experience, and from observing the experiences of others, the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the Ngrandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Ngrandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Ngrandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the Ngrandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them. I have read heart-breaking stories of these kinds of situations often enough that I recognize the clear danger any narcissist grandparent represents. They can even steal your children's hearts from you when the children near adulthood with promises of money, houses, cars, college tuition, etc. as bait.

It is imperative to let yourself know that, without profound evidence to the contrary, your narcissist parent is a narcissist still. You must let yourself know for a fact that your Nparent can not be trusted with your most precious responsibility, your children. If you allow contact between your children and your Nparent it must never be out of sight. Never for a moment leave your child alone with this serial abuser. They only need a few moments of alone time to inflict damage. A whisper, an insinuation, a pinch, a look. If you consider yourself a responsible parent you will never, ever leave your child alone with your Nparent. Ever.

So you've made the decision that cutting off contact with your Nparent is a necessity and now you're dealing with questions from your children, or you're anticipating questions. First of all, let us establish another fact. You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your child that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. I am not going to script what you should say because you are the only one who knows your children, but you must convey that this isn't up for negotiation. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

If you have another set of grandparents in the picture then focus on them. It is rare that both sets of grandparents are nasty. Emphasize to your children how much we enjoy being around grandma and grandpa so-and-so (the decent and loving grandparents). Cultivate your children's relationship with the decent, loving grandparents. Teach your children to be grateful for the decent, loving grandparents. Gratitude is a highly effective antidote to loss. Focus them on what they have, not what they don't have. Model that attitude of gratitude.

You will find that the children will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the narcissist grandparent if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your Nparent in the hearing of your children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed the Ngrandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more.

Young children are not known for their long attention spans. This works in your favor. With younger children you have the advantage of distraction. It is easy enough to get the child's mind off onto another track. Every parent has done the distraction routine at one time or another. "Mommy, I want to see NastyGram today!" "Honey, we aren't going to see NastyGram today because we get to go to the park and eat ice cream." (Make up fun time on the spot if necessary for this distraction.) "Yay!!" says the kid and off we go. Subject changed, kid distracted. In time, NastyGram will fade from memory. Any bonding that may have occurred will dissipate in the process of time.

Remember, you are the parent. You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. Kidlet doesn't get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is. It will happen more quickly if you follow the above advice.

Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behavior; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

Cutting off from your narcissist parent is a good thing. No need to act otherwise. Your children will sense it is a good thing by how you behave. Model how you want them to respond and it is likely they will imitate. Don't be afraid of their questions. Kids are amazingly resilient and well-equipped to handle truth. Parents are supposed to protect their progeny. If your child doesn't agree with how you go about that don't worry. They will often disagree with your decisions for their best interests. Nothing new there. It is your job as parent to make the tough decisions. If you know it is the right decision then proceed with confidence. Showing confidence is a quality of leadership. As a parent you are supposed to be a leader. Lead...and they will likely follow".

Narcissists as well do not do at all well in therapy because they think there is nothing wrong with them. It will be a complete waste of time to suggest that to her so do not bother. Infact if you do you will probably be on the receiving end then of her narcissistic rage. Also such people will need decades of therapy even if embarked upon.

These links may also prove helpful to you:-

www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/no-contact/
outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/no-contact

Thank you Attila for your kind reply. Through my recent counselling I have come to realise that there is something seriously wrong with my dad, and it is chilling. I have not as an adult had the full force of his rage on me: growing up, my mum, sister and I were a revolving cast of scapegoats. It was shocking to me to see the deadness in his eyes, and the contempt with which he looked at me. But since the last time i was the bad guy (as a teenager) I've had a lot of therapy and done a lot of work) and I knew that the things he was accusing me of were just reversals and projections. It was a fiction, all of it. Reading these threads today (all day while DD was at school) I realised I have to go NC with him at least.

My mum... she sees the problems. She agrees with me. She doesn't try to gaslight me at least (any more) but her line is always "I can't say anything to him, he won't listen and it will make it worse." She despairs of the destruction he wreaks on her family relationships. So she's given up, won't fight my corner. apparently she managed to set some boundaries with him most of the time before we moved in and he has got worse since DD and I have been living there, because stress brings on the worst episodes.

I have a part time job (and am on benefits) and I have reduced my hours so that time without me in the house is minimal. I have insisted to her that my dad NEVER be left alone with DDs now and she says she would never go out but can't always be in the same room. She never stood up for me and Dsis as kids and feels terribly guilty for it. She feels awful that the safe haven she offered us to leave DD's dad has proved anything but. She has clearly suffered from his abuse too (once he did not speak to her for a year) but was too afraid to leave him. She wishes she had. But I don't think I can trust her to put DD ahead of her anxiety around him. Do you think I am correct in that?

justagirl I hope you get the support you need.

Attila no I don't think it's about me expecting more from dd because she's been better parented than me. In fact she was the catalyst for me realising the extent of the problem. My mother is a classic narc and had me fooled for years that I was the odd and inadequate one. It was only when DD was 12, had spent a week with the perfect grandma and said "God mummy, how did you cope with her". I spent a lifetime, almost 50 years, thinking everything was my fault.

knittingnancy - you should pause a minute to congratulate yourself on standing up to him as you did - first time I did that to my mum I spent the rest of the day trying not to be sick (told her to stop bullying my daughter). wearegoing I didn't say anything for 45 years. When I at last spoke up (albeit mildly and tentatively) I was shocked that people who knew my parents were both unsurprised and sympathetic. If the 4 are on your side as far as you can tell, might be worth a tentative try. The relief at recognition of the situation was the beginning...

Thank you Attila. But what if I'm overreacting? I wish I didn't still second guess myself but I do.

Weirdly coincidentally some of it came to a head with DD this evening. Its going to sound like such a small thing though. One of the many things that DM has been obsessed with is the idea that I must not pass on my (unacceptable to her) arachnophobia to DD. It's not about her compassion for 8 legged creatures, it's just about how wrong I am. So when DD displays any sign that she might not absolutely loooove spiders, DM overreacts ridiculously.

So the latest wheeze in this saga is that at the weekend DM got DD one of those fairy doors for her house. Then she reads out the blurb that comes with it. And she tells DD that the bit of paper sets out the rules for having a fairy. And one of the rules is that DD's new fairy loves all creatures in nature and therefore DD, and me of course, must be kind to all spiders in our house and never kill one. Of course I know that DM is making up this part and it's not in the thing she's reading from so I call her out on it but I don't think DD understood.

But then this evening DD discovers a spider in the laundry basket. Cue discussion about how I must not kill it because her fairy will be so sad cos it said so in the note. I've ended up trying to explain to a quite upset 4 year old that no, her gran made that part up, that even though fairies might love all of nature that doesn't mean that mum is not allowed to kill a spider ever again.

Basically, DM very knowingly set up a situation where if I ever kill a spider again in my own home, DD will believe that I have now done a very cruel thing, that I don't 'love nature' and that I've upset her fairy friends for no good reason. That's the kind of undermining DM does although this is the first time that I've actually been confronted with my own child basically having to cope with the idea that her mum who she loves is doing a morally bad thing.

To DD this isn't trivial stuff. To her, fairies are real and they're in charge of things like nature and they make the rules about those things. Rules that even mummies must follow. So I'm trying to negotiate this fairy stuff (stuff that I have never even pushed by the way), explain to her than her gran lies, that humans who don't know anything for real about fairies wrote that piece of paper, that fairies are not the boss of humans, that we can love nature but we're still allowed to kill things like ants and wasps and spiders etc. I mean this is just insanity am I right?

And if this is the effect of what DM can plant in her head at 4, so easily, she can certainly do it with more serious things can't she? This is how she could turn my own child against me and make her believe that I'm a bad person.

Am I overreacting? I know no one can really answer that question but me because it would take forever to tell all the things she's done over the years. And really, I know she's crazy. Everyone in the family knows she is, it's not even debated.

polly if your mother's anything like mine you're not overrreacting, you're underreacting. I used to feel like there were two interpretations running in my head, one where I should be tolerant and give her the benefit of the doubt and all this and the other where I was interpreting her actions as deliberate. And if I believed the deliberate interpretation, then her actions were so vindictive that I would really consider her to be quite dangerous and certainly no friend to us - and it seemed harsh to condemn someone that hard when all the evidence is a bit equivocal, when each thing can be plausibly explained as a misunderstanding or whatever.

It would be an interesting experiment (I'm not suggesting you actually do it!) to post the fairy door story on AIBU and I strongly suspect that like 90% of the responses will be "you're being a bit harsh, she just wanted to do something nice for your daughter, you're taking it all wrong, it's a misguided attempt to help your daughter not have your arachnophobia, she forgot you have arachnophobia" etc etc. And say Mumsnet's here in 15 years, and you're still posting those dilemmas, now half of them will have changed their tune but now it'll be "you've been moaning about your mother for the last 15 years, why don't you cut her some slack" and my personal favourite whenever anyone ever says anything about their abusive relatives: "you don't seem to like her very much". Well no, why the hell would we? But there seems to be this sort of hapless innocent victim narrative where we're supposed to just keep loving and loving these people because they're our parents, even if they're awful, as soon as you acknowledge that it's like you become nasty by association. There's a lassie who posts about her narcissistic MIL on AIBU and every OP is like "my MIL, who is a total bitch and I hate her, did so-and-so outrageous thing last week" and then she gets a roasting for saying she doesn't like her! I don't know where this love of fake-nice, turn the other cheek disingenuousness comes from but it does abuse victims no bloody favours.

I think for most people our sense of fairness sort of says you need proof beyond reasonable doubt before you condemn someone, and I agree that's a really good benchmark of proof when you're talking about the strong judging the weak, like when a state puts someone in jail. But when you're talking about balancing the interests of a child vs an adult, I think the balance is different. I think you are entitled to take action to protect your child if you have any suspicion that abuse might take place, if you even suspect (given their history) that they might try to abuse your child. Just because nobody else believes us about our childhoods, doesn't mean it didn't happen, and we're entitled (thank god) to act on the evidence of our own senses even if we can't prove it to anyone else. And I think that holds also if the grandkid is a golden child - I think that can mess you up just as surely as being the scapegoat - and also if the abuse is aimed at the adult child, i.e. the grandkid is being used as Attila said as a tool to get at you. We don't have an obligation to put up with this shit.

I'm thinking back now on the shit my mother used to pull. It ranged from the mildly irritating (offering to "treat" us to dinner... at McDonalds, because she knows I fucking hate McDonalds) to the potentially quite dangerous (offering to hoover and then throwing the liquid ant poison traps that she found into the kids' toybox, which luckily I found before they ever touched them because I knew her and I always went to check what she'd broken after she'd "done me a favour", but I still had to throw out a number of their toys that had had ant poison on them.) And the endless girly pink shite! That was funny. it was quite nice for the kids actually. I didn't like dolls and pink and sparkly dresses as a kid, much to my mother's frustration, as she really wanted a little doll girl to dress up and take places. Because she's a raging narcissist she assumed that I'd therefore be totally against dolls and pink for my own kids, i.e. that I'd try to make them in my own image the way she did with me. But I'm quite happy for them to get into all that stuff if they want to. She spent as little as possible on presents for them as a rule but she went all out when she bought them fairy dresses and dolls... I could see that it was supposed to be a dig at me, a way of making my day to day life a bit shit by introducing into it something she thought I'd hate... but because she so misread me, she totally missed the mark and the kids got some lovely fairy dresses as well!

Polly I am at that! What on earth?! You are definitely not over reacting or over thinking it - that is manipulation at its finest right there! It's the fact it's so obviously done with the thought behind it of interference in your relationship/ yet she can then fall back on 'I'm just trying to do a nice thing for your dd blah blah blah' eugh.

I am definitely going to cut back on how much I tell my mother- I've already started just brushing over Day to day stuff etc. and trying not to feel bad when she guilt trips me. My problem is both me and my partner struggle with our mothers so often it makes me think there's something wrong with me. (Compounded by the fact whenever I said to my mother 'oh his mum did this' it was 'I'm sure she didn't mean it/wasn't like that') this just drives me mad because it's made me develop the mindset I can't be upset about something unless it's the absolute worst of the worst (someone abducted and attempted to rape me when I was 19/20 and I felt like because I hadn't actually been raped I couldn't report it) years later I told her about it and her response was 'oh well at least you weren't raped/and were you walking alone at night?/it's because you're attractive' ARGHHHHHH! Honestly it drives me mad. I've been in multiple abusive relationships for which I am still having counseling for and she constantly asks what we discuss in the sessions and when I say I don't want to talk about it she gets upset!

It's so hard not really talking to her because I feel bad and it feels odd as my entire lifetime I have spoken to her and almost used her to confirm life choices.

Polly

What toomuchtooold wrote to you as well.

If anything you've underreacted and like many adult children of narcissists have failed to recognise the narcissist's ability to adapt to changing circumstances.

Your child as well as you need to stay away from your mother forthwith; your mother will do you and she no favours at all in the long run. If this is the sort of crap she can feed your DD at 4 then just imagine what another 5-10 years will do to her in particular. Your DD is basically being used by your mother as her personal narcissistic supply, she is trying to steal the heart and mind of your child. Its that bad. The golden child role is certainly a role not without price either.

too much - that's just it, on the surface it's always couched as being caring. You have to know her to know that it's not, it's just another control thing and a way for her to teach DD that mummy is silly. It's like in one of those links Attila posted, she almost always makes sure she has deniability. If that fails, she lies and 'forgets' what she said.

The real nasty comments slip out every so often and funnily enough that kind of gives me confidence that I'm not imagining the rest. Like how 'your father never talks about feelings, that's why you all are the way you are'. And I know that if I pulled her up on that and asked exactly what she means by 'the way we all are', well, it would just be pointless. She throws out those kind of insults then ducks responsibility for them because she's oh so upset she can't be expected to be in control of what she says. (And anyway those insults are actually the truth of what she believes about us - we're all the problem and us being horrible people is because DF is a horrible person - not her fault anyway).

pizza - thank you for seeing it! It is so deliberate. You see she's mocked my arachnophobia my whole life and since DD was born has been literally obsessive about how I'm just doing well enough at not passing it on to her.

While she was reading it out I interrupted her and told her 'no, that's not what it really says is it DM? Because we all know that I make the rules for me house, so could you read what's really written there again?' This was in front of DD so I was putting it in terms she'd understand. I told her several different ways that I was going to continue to decide what I do in my house and that's not what the note says, so she knew perfectly well that I knew what she was up to. But still she didn't really back down and, say, tell DD that she had misread it 'by accident' and that of course fairy won't be angry at mummy.

I know what you mean about it feeling odd to keep the conversation on a superficial level. I've done that very successfully in the past but it is strange because you know you're not interacting normally. Like you've noticed though, it's certainly better than the alternative because anything 'real' you say is, for her, just another opportunity to minimize your problems or criticize or blame you.

I never share my real feelings or the real problems I have in my life with her and haven't done for years. You get much more used to censoring yourself around them over time. It feels less and less strange. You have to stay quite sort of self-aware to keep it up though which gets hard if you're feeling vulnerable for some reason. Even a bad night's sleep, being hungry, or stressed about something can combine to make you lower your defences and open up more than you should.

Ive watched and gleaned from this thread for some time and now I've done it. I've started my first step today.
I've been holding back for years and minimizing events and feelings.
I've had an initial telephone consultation and it looks likely I'll be referred for counseling and possibly CBT.

This is a big day for me.

I just thought I'd get that out there.

Frankie cbt is the best thing I've ever done for me. I had to give it time but I have connected so many dots together. Well done for taking the first steps! I'm with you at the start too! I feel so sad that it's happened but also pissed off that it has had to come to this

That should've said 'not doing well enough at not passing it on to her'.

Pizza thank you. I'm feeling very teary and a little apprehensive now.... I've said some things out loud, I've started this ball rolling.

I hope I can dip in and out of here and possibly open up a little more.

Frankies saying it out loud is the launchpad. Realising that other people hear and understand is like the rebirth. There are actually people out there who understand that the little separate things sound small, but it's the constant denial that you have rights to thoughts and feelings of your own that push you down and down and down. I really wish this thread existed 20/30 years ago, but at least it's here now. When I have to face the foul people in my life, now I go in knowing a few key people know and understand - it's a talisman

I too so wish that I had MN when I was young. 0ver 60 years of bullying might have been prevented. I have found that only on here am I believed. I never talk to anyone in real life now about it. The look people give you if you try to explain tells you it is a waste of breath.

When mother was in a home several relatives commented on my Brother's lack of visits. One day, feeling low I said to my Cousin, "nobody knows what his life was like with her". I knew what she would say, "She is still his mother". Of-course she said exactly that. If I could have listed the things she did and said to us, she still would have made excuses.

This same cousin has a step-sister and the daughter does not speak to her. My cousin thinks that she is an awful daughter. This is despite the fact that she knows her BiL boasted about kicking his daughter when she misbehaved, and how he made sure he changed into his boots