"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Flump Re: physical illness I did find a niche kind of dementia that causes personality changes (I forget what it was called) and thought she might have that, but then I thought of the past and realised the signs were always there. I'm not sure whether they truly do get worse as they get older or whether it's just we're more aware of it because we're not blindly devoted any more.

I do wish I could spend some of the energy I use on over-psychoanalysing her on something more enjoyable instead. She doesn't deserve it.

I know what you mean spare - my M would love if she knew how much space she had been taking up in my head lately - actually that's a really good motivation to stop thinking about it all!

I agree if it was an illness they wouldn't have been doing these shitty things all our lives

Do you mind if I join for a little bit, as I'm not asking for advice for myself but for my DM?

I've done some research and I strongly suspect her late DM (my gran) had (at least some) narc traits, which explains a lot. DM and I have been talking a lot recently which I think helps her as a lot of stuff is floating around her head at the moment and she's really minimising and excusing stuff.

Today she started talking about her DF who I never knew. She said she was scared of him and that he sometimes stonewalled her for months, and then told me about an episode of violence towards her DM that she witnessed as a small child.

She then said that she hadn't thought of that episode for years, and that there was more and worse and it was all better left unsaid, and wanted to stop talking. I just said that I was always here if she ever did want to discuss it.

I have a feeling something pretty bad happened to her as a child - I mean, worse than 'just' having the narc mother. What can I do to help her? I guess I just have to wait and be there if she wants to talk. Whatever the truth is, it can't be as bad as the stuff I'm imagining in my head.

Helping I haven't been on here long either. But I think you already have the answer yourself - just be ready to listen to your DM. There are also some links at the top of this thread for reading etc. The most valuable thing I've found is the validation I've had from other people on this thread.

Hi everyone

Helping that's good advice from spare - just having you to talk to whenever your mum is ready will be a huge help.

My emotions are a bit crazy at the moment - I'm having some really nice moments, like suddenly feeling really happy and free like I've escaped from something awful, but then other times I feel really vulnerable and unsure about everything.

Last night I started feeling really, really angry. Not just with my M, but with all the people (adults) who were around her when I was little, who must have at least had an inkling of what she was and just nodded and went along with her. And I don't want to, but I also feel pissed off with my DSis - who when I had the big fall out said all the right things and agreed with me about my M - but has since then carried on seeing our M all the time, and has done precisely nothing in my defense - in her own words she is constantly biting her lip to stop herself disagreeing with things our M is saying.

DH says that although my Sis may well know it's all true, she might just not be able to face dealing with it yet, or ever. And that it could well be because our M has trained her to comply better than she managed to do with me.

I suppose that makes sense but it's still upsetting to think my M is spouting all her toxic shit about me and nobody (outside of my family/home) is arguing with her version of events.

In my pathetic little Disney head my Dsis would also call her up on all of it - then our M would realise what a dispicable person she's been all our lives and would spend the rest of her life trying to make up for it by miraculously becoming a good mother/grandmother.

Writing that down is quite embarrassing actually, because I know how impossible it is.

Flump I don't think my M is half as toxic as yours but I did get where you are coming from because the triangle with my M, DSis and me is exactly the same. She is much closer to our M than me, still sees a lot of her and although she always supports me I think she also feels she has to tread a fine line sometimes.

I get really angry too. I'm hoping that it's a bit like a stage of grief and over time it will sort of work its way out. The advice is to just feel it and accept it but I don't find that easy.

I think your DH is right and your DSis is just on an earlier part of the path to understanding what your M is really like. (That sounds a bit New Agey but hopefully you know what I mean!)

My worry is actually kind of the opposite of yours - that if I continue to set boundaries, and continue to talk to DSis and she starts to do it too, that our M will react badly and the whole thing will blow up into something awful. This is quite frightening for me because we were always taught that conflict etc was bad, and even though I know now that that's not necessarily true there's still part of me that fears it.

PS I mentioned downthread I was going to make a written list to help me deal with my M on the phone. Pleased to report that although it would sound like a mad-crazy thing to do outside of this thread that it has really helped. Well, on the first try anyway. 😉

Helping It sounds like you are doing great already, just being there. It's hard to follow someone else's process, but sometimes you just have to be patient. Would she consider counselling?

Spare Yy to avoiding conflict, and yy to the Disney version! Downthread someone, I think flump, asked whether I am considering nc or lc. My reaction is definitely definitely not and I think it's because I still hope and believe it is all going to work out and be happy and nice. If anything more contact!! How's things for you at the moment, I can't remember the details of your situation?

Flump It's really hard with siblings isn't it. One of mine is also to some extent awakened. But nevertheless seems to keep allowing the engulfment and scapegoating and so on. I am pretty certain there is a lot of ChestofDrawers Is Shit talk going on and I wouldn't have thought anyone is sticking up for me. I just see them being all off with me and work it out from that. It must feel very painful for you after such open conversations with your sister. How do you feel about your sister and your relationship now, knowing that she might not want to step away?

I posted a few days ago about a mini drama where I was ditched for my sibling for something in our family media group. I stood up to my mother about it and that actually went OK. So that's good. Although inevitably now a load of self doubt. This weekend there is a big family thing. Kind of dreading it. Feel guilty for that. Also feel guilty as I feel like I am constantly looking for evidence, seeing things differently, trying to counter my self doubt I suppose. Makes me feel like a horrible negative unforgiving person though.

PS spare that's great news! I may well copy you!

flump I get how you feel, I went through a stage a while back at being angry with other people. Aunts, uncles, 'friends' of my m (she doesn't actually have any real friends). Once the anger had subsided, I realised that some of these adults probably didn't see the whole picture. They didn't want to get involved or undermine someone with the potential to go batshit crazy. Although they must of had an idea that something wasn't quite right, what could they really do? SS would have done nothing as there would have been no evidence of abuse.

You are completely entitled to that anger, there is nothing wrong with feeling it. There were more than likely people around who knew things weren't right and failed to do anything to protect an innocent child. I would just try and put yourself in their position, they probably don't have the experience of abuse that you do. Not everyone believes a parent can treat their children badly. So they could have done more, definitely, but probably didn't know what to do so just went home and hugged their own children a bit tighter. I guess I'm just trying to say don't take their lack of action personally.

Don't read this next bit if you are feeling really fragile. Your m will almost definitely never change. She's not going to suddenly realise what a horrible person she is and try to make it up to you. She has probably been the same her whole life and changing who we are is difficult, even if you want to. We have an in built need for our parents to love and care for us and realising that they don't is traumatic. Your DSis won't want to admit it because the truth hurts too much. Like your DH said, she's just not where you are. Getting there takes a lot of courage and heartache and it may never happen for her. All you can do is remain there for her when she needs you.

spare My DM has a beady-eyed look. Kind of like she's calculated you're going to respond in a certain way and she's now waiting.

OK now you're all starting to scare me. It's the same woman, I swear! We're all sisters. Did you ever get the thing where you're having an argument or just any sort of frank discussion and you say something and you can see them sort of... calculating the odds on their next move? The eyes are totally dead.
Glad to hear your M playbook worked for you!

Helpingmama it might be that your mum's right and for her some things are better left unsaid. Some victims of childhood abuse victims (so I've read, and also experienced myself) can find it retraumatising to talk about what happened, specially if they go at it too fast. So being there for your mum if she does want to talk is ideal.

IDK if your mum would be into this sort of thing but yoga has been shown to help people heal from trauma - there's a lot of information about how it works in the book Overcoming Trauma Through Yoga.

Flump
I started feeling really, really angry... with all the people (adults) who were around her when I was little

I've been feeling a fair bit of that recently. My mother sabotaged all our friendships, both her own and mine and my dad's, so we were quite isolated. But there were still my schoolteachers, those are the ones that really do my nut in. Did nobody ever look at me, at the constant bubbling anxiety, the nervous habits, the endless bullying, and wonder what the fuck was going on at home? The trouble is, they would have said "is everything OK at home?" and what would I have said? My mum doesn't seem to like me, she shouts at me a lot, I seem to always be doing something wrong? She doesn't approve of the clothes I want to wear, she doesn't approve of any of my friends? That all sounds like sort of standard teenage stuff, and to be honest it rarely got to the point of an actual conflict because I had learned the rules so well that she never actually had to raise her voice. And I was anyway too scared that the school would say something to her. I never even told anyone in school when I was being bullied, because I knew she would take it personally - how dare this other kid treat her possession badly? I learned my lesson on that one early, I can remember running back into our house aged like 5 or 6 and I'd have had a fight with some kid and they'd have hit me and I'd be crying and then what came next was even worse, because she'd humiliate me for crying instead of hitting back. "What's WRONG with you? Even an animal defends itself." That was her line. Ironically, what was wrong with me was that she had trained me out of the fight response by giving me PTSD. PTSD (and complex PTSD) is thought to be caused by experiencing trauma where you're unable to use either your fight or flight defences - don't fight back, don't run away. It causes people to stay in a constant state of alertness for threat, and to dissociate - freeze - when threatened. I learned early that when she was hitting me, running away, struggling and crying made her angry so I would go limp and go to another place until it was over. I can remember that happening and I remember I was 3. God, that horror of a woman.

toomuch that's awful that you had that at only 3. My eldest is 3 and I'm starting to remember stuff that was done to me at that age and could never imagine doing that to her. My m never hit me but she did hit my older brothers, quite badly. She would make a point of not hitting me in front of them, so then they would hit me as soon as she left the room. She must have known what was going on but did nothing to stop it. She hated it if we were getting on and did everything she could to alienate us from each other. We don't get on great now but I speak to them from time to time. My m gets a sort of nervous twitch if I tell her I've spoken to one of them without her knowledge. It's ridiculous, I sound like I'm at primary school and there's the one bossy bully telling everyone who they can and can't talk to.

Thank you all of you for reading my various brain dumps honestly, I bore myself sometimes...

Chest I don't know how I feel about my sister atm. I was talking to DH about all this last night until way too late (am knackered today). He said I could try to just suspend any judgement on the fact that she's carrying on with our M as if nothing's changed, even though she completely agreed with me. Because we don't know what's going on in her head or how she's feeling or if she's struggling with it all. But it's hard - I am a bit too good at making snap judgements about people and what I believe they think of me - and it's usually negative . So anyway I will try and give her space to sort it out her way.

Poor old DH, I know deep down he thinks my M is an irrelevant old bat who we're all better off without and it must be frustrating for him that I'm letting it all upset me so much.

Toomuch it's funny, I have to say there were actually a few teachers over the years with me who really tried to step in and help. One particular one was very kind, took a lot of time out to talk to me about if I was ok - she could see I was very anxious and on edge and tried to talk to my parents about it and what could be causing it. That didn't go down well - she was an 'interfering old mad woman' according to my M and the 'funny story' of how this teacher tried to 'interfere' and how my mum gave her a 'talking to' became one of her 'hilarious' anecdotes...

But it is comforting actually, to remember that even back in the dark old days of the 80's, there were people who tried to help. But it also goes to shoe just how manipulative and controlling a narc mother can be - because none of the people who tried to help ever really got near to being able to help, because of her.

Spare it's ok, I do know deep down she will never change, or even want to. And I do know, deep down, that whether she did or not has bugger all with me getting past all this crap. Because even if she became Mary Poppins tomorrow, it wouldn't take away the last 40 years and what it's done to me, and to other people I care about.

'Goes to shoe'!

I had some lovely teachers. At one point I was scratching myself obsessively and had no idea that there was anything odd about doing it (in fact until quite recently I hadn't thought of it as a form of self-harm). Some teachers noticed though. And another teacher arranged for me to take part in a group residential trip that did me the world of good, and sorted out charity funding so I could go. When I realised (not long ago) that my teachers had noticed things that my parents should have been a) aware of b) helping me with, I was really upset about it.

@toomuch, I am a lurker and have found this threat invaluable. I had to comment on you just being three years old and dissociating, you poor wee soul how ghastly, vile to assault a three year old. are these your first memories? mine is when I was 5 going to dm with a sore bottom she had to wipe with a cloth, I suffered csa from paternal gf. my dm was a teacher and a lot of my behaviours were disturbed as a child, I feel so angry that no one helped or noticed too.
it's just shocking what people like your mum and my gf have done to such young vulnerable children just hideous xxx

Coconut I'm so so sorry, what happened to you is absolutely awful, unthinkable. It should never be thought let alone done.

I'm finding this online community so very helpful, and I know the introduction says that we shouldn't compare but mine are takes of woe compared to yours, if you think it might help I've found this a safe place to try to work through things. Xx

I find it difficult to explain my mum's facial expression, it's a cross between disapproval, disappointment and sucking a lemon. She does do the beady eyed scanning though but only when she thinks I'm not looking. It creeps me out, it's almost alien although it's the only time she does actually look right at me (when she thinks I'm not aware), I've noticed that I've learned to zone out and pan face. I just don't feel comfortable in her presence.

Today's meet was bearable. A few weeks ago I had my very dark (died) hair weaved to make it lighter, everyone noticed apart from mum. She said she can't tell I've had anything done. I must have parted my hair differently today though because everyone at work asked if I'd had it made even lighter and when I met up with them even my dad commented straight away that it looked lighter but my mum said I look no different and she still can't tell I've had anything done. For the record, I haven't mentioned having my hair done as I'm avoiding discussing anything personal, so she must have noticed to even mention that she hasn't

And, they've put an offer in on a house. I was interested so asked all about it but all mum said was what was wrong with it, her face was glum and there was no excitement at all. It's only round the corner from where they live now and it's similar in size and shape but has less going for it. It doesn't seem logical to move, I didn't say that though, but it really did fit in with the theory that N's won't ever admit they are wrong. She wanted to move but didn't know why (apart from she hated the cabinets my dad bought without her permission) and now they are doing but for no gain whatsoever. It's bonkers. It's their issue though, not mine.

Worst I did have to laugh, its as though any tenuous connection with anyone they regard as important/influential reflects positively on them. They've no self awareness at all have they!?

Spare It's interesting that you mention scratching. I was a scratcher too, and a picker (especially my upper arms), I was a nail biter as well.
Occasionally I'd pull out eyelashes and pick at the hair around my temples too, but not often enough to cause real damage.

I've been thinking about it and I only gave up nail biting when I left home at age 21 but I continued to be an arm picker up until about 10 years ago.

The emotional abuse went unnoticed by my teachers but I did notice that all of my friends parents were very fond of me, I'd always always be invited to stay for tea and felt part of their family. I was never jealous of what they had, jealously wasn't a known emotion to me, but I was aware that I did feel very much at home and content in their company. I still remember with great fondness my friend Sarah's mum making extra chicken gravy just because she knew I thought it was delicious. I suppose I saw my parents as just being too busy for me. Interestingly though, we did a German exchange whilst I was at senior school. I went over there first and it was wonderful but when my German friend came over to stay with me she stayed one night and then went to complain (I don't know about what exactly, my mum told me that she objected to eating off a wooden table ) but whatever happened, she was moved to stay with someone else and that was that. I never saw or heard from her again and it was never mentioned ever again.

Flump going back to your DSis I did decide after reading Toxic Parents to write a letter to her (DSis) to explain how I felt about our M. But I never sent it because after I'd done it I realised that actually writing it was the important thing. However I panicked that DH or DD might find it on the computer and that DD in particular would be disturbed by it. So I 'hid' it at the end of a Word doc I thought no-one else would be likely to read, which was a knitting pattern for a woolly Dalek (DD is into Doctor Who). I think there was some sort of Freudian impulse that led me there, because woolly Dalek is actually quite a good description of our M,

I'm a skin picker too . The skin around my fingers is disgusting, I feel embarrassed when I have to shake hands with somebody. Lately I've been trying to stop by putting nail polish on, it kind of reminds me no to do it if it's a bright colour - it's really hard tho as I've done it all my life...

Treacle it's funny, I was always popular with friends' parents too - I was really shy (so really quiet!) so maybe that helped

X-posted with you spare - I love the idea of a knitted dalek - have you made it? I love knitted things!

A while ago I wrote a really angry letter to my M - I never intended to send it either, just to get it out of my system. It was pretty nasty but all true - when I read it back I actually shocked myself! I deleted it in the end because it was really awful

It's weird, I've been thinking about this and it's a bit odd but my mum is pretty well known as being a misery and hard work yet I'm known as being happy and easy maintenance yet my mum has gone through life with no addictions ( Apart from dieting) yet I have picked, scratched, bitten, smoked cigarettes, dieted to the extreme, drank booze, smoked dope (ages ago not now), had counselling, saught help, been in abusive relationships, gambled, had stress related physical symptoms, been prescribed anxiety meds and maybe many more things as that's just off the top of my head. My N mum has done/had none of these things. And neither has she noticed or at least if she has, she's not commented that I've done them, I'm pretty sure I'd have noticed if my son was doing any of the above. I'd be freakin' gutted for him if my child was going through life relying on crutches to get by, and to be frank, I would know because I'd care enough to pay attention and take an interest.

For my birthday (earlier in the year) she'd bought me a 'perfume' that was supposed to suppress appetite and aid weight loss, today I've thrown it in the bin. I feel so much ch better for doing that.