"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

midnight

Have you considered enrolling on the Freedom Programme run by Womens Aid; that could also help you as it is for those who have been in abusive relationships.

We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents and yours taught you a shedload of damaging lessons.

I feel so angry this morning. I spent all night mulling over the way my M turned my DF's stroke into a story all about her.

Then this morning there's the horrible, tragic news all over the tv and I've heard a few people already talk about the 'evil' that has caused this. And that has set me off all over again because in my M's last rage at me she told me that is what I am and always have been.

How the fuck can she think I am evil and was an evil little girl? I've literally never hurt anybody. I know she is a huge fuck up and clearly has a personality disorder, but what can she have seen in me that's 'evil'?

I still don't understand

attila I was in a women's refuge so I was doing a course by them but moved out half way through. Currently awaiting to do the course again.
badtaste im so sorry about what you're going through. Your mum sounds the evil one by joking about your dad's stroke!! As if it was some kind of inconvenience to her!! She is clearly passing the blame of evilness onto you as she cannot accept that she is the evil one!

midnight

treacle, spare, I think you have to let yourself obsess on it for a while, there comes a point where you get sick of thinking about it and move on, I think, but then you will unearth something else and then you can't get that out of your head... I think it's fine, I think it's natural to react like that.

It feels from what everyone's writing that we all basically had the same childhood. I had a curfew of 9pm till... till I left at 21, basically. I was "allowed" out later than that for specific reasons when I was at uni but it would always result in a week or two of silent treatment if I for example went out and then phoned to say I was staying out. I mean this is when I was like 19 and 20 years old. I so , so wish I'd left home to go to uni but I believed my mother's view of the world that it was difficult and scary. It's so frustrating because by that age I didn't listen to her any more but there were so many things I'd picked up from her as a kid that I didn't even know came from her, my world view changed completely once I left home and I remember friends telling me it would but you have to experience it to know.

When I was a little kid my mother just made friendships impossible. She had a real chip on her shoulder about the mums of the 4 or 5 popular girls in my class - they had a bit more money than us and lived in private houses not council, which apparently made her feel inferior, because she never let up criticising them. Of course I couldn't be friends with any of them because of that, and then she wouldn't let me be friends with any of the kids who were friends with them (how a grown woman could be bothered to know that much about playground politics astounds me) so then it was just me and the little kid who smelled of wee. She was nice enough anyway .

There was a thing that happened to me when I had just left school that I still wonder about. My mother took a message from one of my ex school colleagues while I was out, asking if I wanted to come and meet them at her house that night. I phoned back to say yes, and she'd already given my mother the address. I went up there and there was no house with that number, they didn't go that far. Now, this girl had sometimes been friends with me and sometimes not, and it was possible that she'd done it to play a trick on me, so I just went home and when she phoned me later to ask what had happened I said let's meet another time, I don't feel like it tonight. And I didn't hear from her again. But I wonder whether my mother deliberately gave me the wrong address? The sad thing is that it could have been either of them. I was so surrounded by utter shits in my life. And I had no idea at that time that the world was full of nicer people.

I look back on my life and I wonder how many people just saw me as being incredibly weird. I never had a bloody chance. Dressed like a much smaller kid, never allowed out, terrified of getting into trouble - and then as an adult, so shy, so wracked by emotional flashbacks that I felt I had to just ignore. And yet I know some cracking people. Most of them as messed up in the head as I am

I'm really interested in this naivety/immaturity thing. I think it's to do with the sort of false self or adapted child that we develop as children, where instead of listening to our own wants and needs we learn to become attuned to others'. I think when we lose contact with that real inner voice, we are naive because we are not listening to our own perceptions, and we come across as inauthentic because you can tell something is missing, some instinct of self interest or self preservation.

I also think there's a thing where we're really bad at taking our medicine IYSWIM - bad at accepting where we need to be disciplined in our own lives or where we need to accept bad news. None of us received any effective discipline at home - we had to dance to the whims of a despot, sure, but nobody taught us the advantages of having self discipline in your own life to serve your own ends. To the extent that you stayed attached to your crazy parent, you sort of believe that if you can get an appropriate authority figure to sympathise with you, you don't have to engage with difficult situations; and if you split off from the crazy parent (like me, I remember thinking aged like 8 or 9 "this is bullshit but I can't piss her off, I'll do what I'm told but I'm not living like this when I grow up) then like me you may have come into adulthood basically feeling like self discipline is for losers. Does any of that make any sense?

flump it's her defence mechanism. She has to believe she's perfect, so if your childhood was ever less than perfect, it must have been your fault. It's as simple as that.

I sometimes wonder how my mother got through one single day of motherhood. My kids would send her round the bend in like 10 minutes. Less. I guess she must have had me trained and compliant from an early age.

Toomuch that's spooky, I was thinking about the naivety thing (I was definitely that way too) on the way to work this morning and wondering why that was, then I checked the thread at lunchtime and you'd explained it. Thank you.

I realised years and years ago that my DP's values (values as in how to live your life as a good person) were completely skewed, and as a result I feel I've had to build my own values completely from first principles, I think. And yet my M has still managed to screw with my head and induce guilt, fear etc. It's because I'd done the brain work but not the emotion work I suppose.

toomuch that's exactly it.

And I worked to get away, but didn't have any life skills, or self discipline, or even self awareness when I did. It trips me up all the time, I only figure out when I'm doing something all wrong because of the way other people react/respond to me. In my 20s people still gave me the benefit of the doubt, but now in 30s not really. I end up really rejected and victim-like, and socially avoidant as a result. I'm more mature than I was, but not like my peers. Maybe on a par with the average 20 year old.. way behind, it's embarrassing.

Morning everyone - hope you're all ok.

I've been wondering today - what do you all do about other, extended family members when you are dealing with all this? I feel like I either have the choice of losing touch with them all, or telling them what my M has said/done over the years and then being accused of stirring/lying/making trouble. Is it pretty standard that once you stop putting up with your narc parent's bad treatment of you, you are pretty much ostracised? It seems so unfair, and really frustrating that somebody so fucking horrible can have everybody apparently believing her.

Flump yes me too. Not so much uncles/aunts etc but DSis. I am just hoping that she sees enough of our M's faults to understand. Also she has a seriously narc (I'm talking probably clinically sociopathic) MiL who she and BiL have beenNC with for about 10 years so she doesn't see NC, if it happens for me, as the socially unacceptable thing a lot of people would. But I would be devastated if I lost touch with DSis.

I don't think you should explain, or not unless the person shows in some way that they also know what your M is really like. It would just be ammunition.

I think it is part of the way our DPs control us, to see being ostracised as something terrible. It's how they mess with our heads. When maybe it will be positive, even without the relatives.

I do worry what will happen when our M gets older and needs some sort of care. I'm not sure I could leave that all to DSis. Perhaps if I can manage to emotionally detach myself now, when the time comes I will be able to feel the grain of genuine sympathy I need to be able to step up? Or maybe I will just have to do it with gritted teeth.

Related to all of that, is it just coincidence that DSis's MiL is narcissistic? Or do codependent people subconsciously seek out other codependents with crappy parents?

Hi flump I'm struggling with this as well/ I want it to be one of the things I work through in counselling. My DM has subsided into ignoring me again, which is great nowadays - so in effect I'm LC/NC with her - and because she always pushed the family ' bonding ' [ ha !] i.e we all have to triangulate through her. This in effect means I don't have contact with others either, unless I initiate it. Presumably they think I'm being weird, but as most aren't interested anyway, they don't ask.
One of the results of my own analysing the past is that I've decided that several of my birth family are narcs as well ---or have definite narc traits . So, nature - or nurture ? Doesn't do them a lot of good, especially as time passes.

Yesterday, I had a chat with a sibling. She would like to keep everyone together. A family gathering is planned. I can't go, luckily. She thinks it's [ just] because of my DM. Should I say Yes, but it's also X,Y and Z. Or let that can of worms lie?
Also, is it better to look after yourself when the alternative - -of being sucked back into the dance of dysfunction ,would be bad for me ? I do feel guilty. Some family members do have hardship going on. I'm not being supportive,by avoidance , but their narc behaviours mean that attempts to help often changes nothing really . And it's usually give an inch take a mile - no appreciation from them, and frustration for anyone trying to help.

So, a biggie. In some respects a bigger biggie than the DM bit , as more complex and longer lasting. Head says keep away, heart feels guilty.

Yes I have a family 'do' coming up to in a few weeks. My gut feeling is that I/we (DH & the DC too) can't go because she will be there. The event isn't for her but there is no way she ever wouldn't be at anything. I've also wondered about us going and just ignoring her, but that would be impossible because she always puts herself right in the middle of everything, quite literally, if that makes sense. And I do feel very much that I want to protect the DC from the fallout she will want to cause - and if I take them anywhere near her I'm not doing that. It's hard though, because it boils down to me/us being left out of family occasions when she is the one in the wrong but is right there in the middle of them, surrounded by (some of) her family. The injustice of it just stinks.

Hi all. I check in here every now and then when I need a bit of grounding and reminding that there's nothing I can do to change my mother's behaviour. Maybe you could even help me laugh at her instead.

I'm due to give birth any day now, and my mother has gone abroad. I know why she's doing it - to feel in control and to remind me how much I need her - but god, I really wasn't expecting her to let me down like this. She reappeared in my life last August, when DS was 18mo and she suddenly wanted to be involved with him. I soon became pregnant and, I'll be honest, the time away from DS was a godsend because I was so unwell and tired. I felt that she owed us after not being around for the first 18m of his life, so I let her in and used the opportunity to rest and recuperate. I tried to keep my guard up, I really did. I just really wasn't expecting this. I didn't let on to her how much it bothered me, but to put it into perspective I'm 100% more anxious about arranging childcare for DS than I am even about giving birth.
Then my father called me out of the blue to decry my mother's actions, but in the same breath, told me he would be on holiday as well, so couldn't help me either.
It's bloody embarrassing having to explain to friends and professionals that I have no family support. It's upsetting that they have such short memories and have clearly forgotten how much help they had from my grandparents and aunts and uncles when they had three babies of their own.
I'm just so sad that she still won't prioritise me or her grandchildren. I wish she'd never come back and raised my hopes AGAIN. I wish I was stronger.

I wish I was stronger...no this is back to front. Be weaker.
You can't cope with the constant roller coaster..so don't.
You tell people your family aren't there for you..you don't hide it. This is not your secret to keep its theirs. If you let it go people will stop making assumptions you have that help available, and will help in a normal, non controlling way.
You don't make the effort to control your anger, or supress your disappointment. No filters. No hiding, no pretending. Stop filling in the gaps they leave in your life. Point at them and say...look at that..you did that. That's not normal.
Weakness is amazing. And very very empowering.

I have thought for a little while that both narcs and the traumatised seek out each other. Both want to feel wanted and needed. Now that I 've begun to look at people in terms of behaviour rather than title so to speak [ Ex H, MIL, Dsis, DB etc], I realise that I've attracted , and been attracted to people who want codependency. My ExH was/is very controlling, as were his mother and father - he wanted a mother substitute - but so did I really [ but as a proper parent]. When he messed me about finally he said it was because I didn't need him any more

I've attracted loads of these covert narc grown up children since. How ? And not only romantically. I read somewhere that if you think you ought to go to see friend X, then they are a friend you don't need. So I stopped. So many over the years. They must sniff you out, the 'friends' who go on and on about themselves but rarely ask about you. All their problems. Never want to change[ they're always in a mess]. Treat you like an idiot or a child. Get irritated if you don't play the game. Expect you to do all the running.

Sounds familiar , anyone ?

Sorry flump and peace. It's hard to suggest anything.

I worry about the get together bit as well. That DM will rush up and act all lovey-dovey to me. I'll freeze or back off and look like an antisocial wierdo. It seems a shame to miss people you do want to see. Let's all have a think.

The no support bit is bad. They are bad.

I agree with665. The SECRECY is what I need to address, with - everyone basically. Families like ours depend on it. I want to become strong enough [ weak enough , 665?] to call it as it is. Much of the crap I have put up with/ways I behaved have boiled down to not challenging things. Playing the good girl game. Keeping other people's behaviours secret. On and on.

Makealist yes I have lots of codependent friends too. It's scary when you start seeing the pattern.

You can call it what you like but when you stop putting in all that effort and energy.. you have it for yourself.
Its..like being stripped to the bone, ? You don't even need to have answers as to why thing happen..its just truth, without any kind of spin.
If peace sent out an email to all her contacts saying "Emergency, I need some help looking after my son when I go into labour, Mum and dad who I thought would be around have both gone on last minute holidays for a few weeks, can anyone help me?"
Who ( normal) wouldn't help if they could?
There is not a lie in there. And if mum and dad are embarrassed, why is that? And why is that her problem? Her problem is only they have let her down.

Flump I was in direct contact with my dad's side but they've all died off now apart from a cousin of mine (who she has always discouraged me from having anything to do with). I'm not directly in touch with my extended family on my mum's side, I never ever have been. My mum has always dealt with everything (even down to still writing my name on Christmas cards) if there's a get together she'll tell me where and when but these are only maybe every five years or so. I can't believe how weird that looks written down, i'd never even thought about it until I started writing .

I recently 'Friended' my cousin on Facebook (the one I have been manipulated to dislike) and sent her a message of support. I know she'd been given a tough time recently over something that happened ages ago and was twisted beyond all recognition. I just wanted to let her know that I had stuck up for her. She told me that she's having a family BBQ later in the year and she's inviting me and my parents, i've not told her yet but I won't be going. I'm not NC with my mum but I am LC and at the moment when she starts with her nastiness I can make a quick subtle exit before it escalates. I'll not be able to do that if i'm cornered so ten to one i'll look like the aggressor and she'll be the poor victim.

665 I love the be weaker - That is fantastic. I'm definitely going to give that a whole load of headspace. Thank you for that.

I just wrote a blog post about that thing when you realise half your friends and family are either codependent or NPD. I definitely think it is a pattern. What's odd for me is that I think I got a degree of recovery fairly early and also my dad was a good guy, so although I've always had the demeanour of a codependent, I never ever went through the full wringer of a relationship with an NPD. I'm fairly good at enforcing boundaries in friendships and relationships, so I've had a couple of experiences where a narcissist picked me up, had a taste and then very quickly spat me out. Weird.

I don't have any useful advice about family contacts. I don't have any siblings and my dad died a few years ago so other than my mother it's all extended family. She kept us as isolated from family as she did from friends, and I don't really know any of them very well. I'd like to get in touch with some of them, maybe meet up when we're once in the UK but I kind of also don't want to set any hares running with my mother. She is quiet right now, and I imagine she's trying to keep the real nature of our relationship quiet from the family, and I suspect that while I have that over her, she won't do anything that might piss me off, like trying to contact the kids. It's not fair, but IDK if it's worth starting trouble over. My dad's family is maybe something different, actually - I especially miss my auntie who when my dad was ill would show up with a bottle of wine and some cream cakes and we'd get pissed and she'd tell me funny stories about them all while my mum's face got more and more cat's bum. My mum's family are all mental. I remember meeting some of the family who live abroad a few years back and we were sitting up with my uncle getting pissed (there is a developing theme here ) and he started this big fucking paean to my mother, about how selfless and modest and overall amazing she was and DH and I were like "WTF is this" - it was so OTT I thought maybe he was taking the piss, maybe trying to provoke me into contradicting him - but I remember thinking, what is the point? Even if he did validate my view of my mother, it doesn't change anything, etc etc. I can really relate to your concept of showing weakness 665 because I was in a place at that time (slightly less so now) that I'd become so proud of my self-sufficiency that it had hardened into an attitude of never letting anyone get close. I cover it up with an attitude of being nice to people and being in control of everything and not needing any help. Pete Walker's flight type, basically.

Hi, I'm new to this thread. I've been seeing a counsellor and it's brought up alot of emotion.

I have no connection to my father. He's never said he loves me or he's proud of me. But I don't care because I don't feel anything towards him. I'm crying because I feel I didn't have the love of a father, not that I didn't feel loved by my father. I feel sad about it.

I don't know a lot about narcissistics but would imagine my dad has some traits.

makealist1 what you said about co dependant friends is so true for me!! Any best friend I had, had these traits. Would have to all be about them, use me, try influence my thoughts. Eventually ever one of them screwed me over and I just cut them out of my life. I somehow seem to attract people like this! It hurt me so bad as I trusted and confided in them and yet they would stab me in the back. I feel so for them now and in glad they are no longer in my life.

665 makealist1 wow yea the secrecy thing too! My mum always says "it's my business no one elses" "don't tell anyone this or that". God if people knew what she was truly like they would be shocked I think!!

So I'm into day 4 of my mum not speaking to me. Part of me is relived and happy. The other is angry and upset as I hadn't done anything wrong!

Some of the 'friends' - and family - are so self focussed that it's debateable where damaged versus narcissistic begin and end. And from dysfunctional families. It's as though they could have turned out like me and gone on to strive to change - but then they're not the self analytical types. So instead they've become adults who act out and feel sorry for themselves whilst not taking any personal responsibility. So it all becomes a circular never ending rant or moan. And they are attracted to those who have damaged boundaries who will listen. .And listen and listen.The people who get their validation [strokes] from being 'nice' etc. Hands up ! Like I was.

One of the hard things for me has been that I no longer feel I'm such a 'nice' person because I won't play the game. So they have to look for someone else . The alternative would be challenging them on it. Which In a way I have - I'll go with you to the doctors etc - result, loads of excuses . Can't change, won't change.

I have family who can't seem to form normal relationships - codependency or nothing. Even to setting up the following generations to fulfil the roles. Sabotage any efforts to set up 'normal' support systems. Drive away any partners who won't play the game. And of course there have been those who want to. But ---- what happens when no one does ? People get older, and tired, lose patience. shock horror - get a life of their own ! Another drama for the future. I used to think that soap operas were OTT, until I realised I was living in an episode of Shameless.

should read 'many are from dysfunctional families'

Didn't preview.Day off work cos head full of cold. Brain not working.Duh !