"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you for the advice everyone. It's an interesting point about retraumatising toomuch, and I think it's DM's instinct to leave it all to lie now.

I expect this will sound incredibly trite but I am so sorry for everything the people on this thread have been through. I've read this thread for advice before and I often think of the stories on here.

Well balls. I've been stupid, I know, but I'm all over the place right now.

I had emergency major abdominal surgery this week, and I have to change my diet to something very specific. And we have no money, as it's our "no pay" week.

So I've had two meals since Tuesday morning. I texted my mother asking for "£50" to tide us over to next week. I sent the text twice as didn't get response/failed first time.

I'm now getting texts from my brother telling me I'm "being abusive and there are penalties for that".

What the actual F**K . If anyone's been abused here it's me over the years.

I sent a blast back, I know I shouldn't have.

I'm so torn up right now. I've been feeling ostracised from family for some time - their little unit and then me (not that this is a bad thing given the past). It's just coincidentally colliding with thinking my stepson has been pushing me away since Xmas. I message him frequently and he replies often before Xmas, yet, (as an example) he didn't message me at all during my hospital stay, he read my messages but didn't reply. I send him a link to something video game related yesterday and had a reply within 30 seconds.

I need to talk to my DD too, she's close to her grandad (my father). I don't want them trying to erect a barrier between me and her. She stays there during the work week as we live rurally so it's easier to get buses from her Grandads.

I'm so torn up, was told no stress, and a recovery of 14 weeks...

Hi Ste
I did think that Specific diet requirements could be got 'on prescription' from the doctor - gluten free breads etc ? Also, what about the local food bank ? you may be able to get a referral [ GP ?] . Worth asking. We ain't got much money either, I can tell you [ with reverse snobbery pride even] which charity shop most of my clothes come from. Sustainability ! It's all about surviving by whichever means we can.
Stepson may not be able to deal with emotional stuff by the sound of it. Many people can't. Or even the possibility of being asked to talk about less than concrete stuff - like video games. Teenager ? So video games it is then ! Cars, football, music ? Still a conversation.

Good luck

Holy crap but this thread moves fast

coconut I think what you went through was much worse and I can't imagine. My first memory is actually quite a nice one - my second birthday, I can remember the heat of the candles on my face. My mother was a classic N, fine until I started to be able to voice my own opinions.

Mama you're welcome! It's lovely having someone come on the thread who had an abused parent who broke the cycle of abuse. Hats off to your mum

Treacle my family is packed full of nice people with unhealthy habits (and arseholes with healthy lifestyles too). It's really depressing now - among the aunties and uncles, almost all the good ones are dead. All the awful ones will probably live till about 90, sucking the life out of the people around them.

My habits current and past include nail biting, scratching, picking the skin around my fingers, compulsive computer gaming, overeating, drinking (I used to have this thing going where I would crack open the first diet coke at 9am and then I would have one open all day till about 8pm and then it would be wine until 11) and being on the internet. TBH, just realising that all this is related to the CPTSD has made me feel a whole lot better because I don't feel any of that "what the fuck is wrong with me" toxic shame that felt before I knew what it all was. And I look at people like my mum (also mostly free of these habits) and I think look, I'd like to be thin and healthy and all the rest of it, but I'd rather be fat than a total arsehole.

Ste I'd second what makealist said re stepson - sounds like you have to just keep the channels of communication open. It's always us, isn't it? We have to find the emotional energy to meet our kids more than halfway, when nobody ever did it for us, so our emotional resources are so low. Do you know what I mean?

Hi all - hope ur all having a narc-free weekend

I've had a bit of an up and down day today - is it normal for your mood to be a bit changey when you're gong through all this stuff? I woke up feeling really crap today - anxious, going over it all so much it was making my head spin. Then this afternoon we weren't doing anything much, just sitting around chatting (not about that, about DIY projects ), with DD flopped over both of us, then our older DC came home and came & sat with us too and I looked around the room, at my own little family, who don't have any agendas, any shit going on with each other. And I thought 'Why the fuck am I wasting my time getting upset over that twisted old bag?'. If she was here we wouldn't be relaxing and being ourselves because she is never nice and normal, even just for a whole day. And if I may say so, the family I have made for myself are all fucking lovely.

And now on that thought, I am feeling really chilled and content.

So is it normal to be so up and down while you're trying to get your head around it all? Knowing me I'll probably have the miseries again by tomorrow....

Hi. Again. Loads of people on the thread, which is fantastic. It moves so fast that by the time I get to read through everything, any responses I'd like to make wouldn't make sense . So glad that there are people on it regularly to support, discuss and suggest things. Even reading through helps me to work through my own stuff.
Habits - I used to chew the end of my hair - and [gross] pick my non existent spots . Binge eat until I became the overweight person I imagined i was, but wasn't really . Damn. Losing it now though - that's interesting isn't it ?

Can I ask a couple of questions ?

One - has any one got any suggestions to try to derail unwanted ruminating ? I've always done this to some extent but when there is something emotional going on I can fall into [obsessive thinking?]. Usually when not mentally busy [ e.g gardening] - or when I want to sleep. Maybe it's a habit ? I have to get up in the end to read myself tired.
It's not useful. I don't come to any earth shattering revelations. And I end up zonked. I want to work through the CPTSD - not get obsessed with it !

Can I ask a couple of questions ?

One - does anyone know how to derail ruminating ? i.e.obsessive thoughts. I want to work through everything etc - but not to have it take over. I wonder if it isn't just a habit. Stops me sleeping at night sometimes properly. Even there when my brain should be at rest. I don't want to become ruled by the journey - and staying awake at nights [ not too often luckily] doesn't result in any great revelations. I get those reading your posts

toomuch i think all our experiences of the various hideous abuses are awful i hate that most of my childhood memories are of being abused. Im glad you have some happy first memories.
Makealist i spend hours ruminating too i try to stop myself getting into the spiral of rumination by thought blocking. An image or flashback will come into mind and in my head i say no stop, i often have a body shudder walked over grave feeling and have to stand up, change room to purposefully stop. I know if i am ruminating or having lots of flashbavks that i am stressed or out of kilter and it acts as an early warning for me to rest or look after self. Dd about to become a teenager and that is when i stopped my abuse, it pains me to think of the girl i was and what i had been through by that age. Xx

Question Two - can anyone recommend any good book[s] about how parenting issues can affect their children's adult health ? Especially eating disorders . Not for me this time, but a family member. thanks

Treaclechin thankyou for your kind words, i think we all have been through hell and it is lovely to talk to people who get it.

My mum does the face and a look too we call it her slapped arse face or looking like she is chewing a wasp. She does the face and wont speak so we all would ask whats wtong etc, last time she did it in my house i told her when she was able to communicate like an adult id speak to her.

Anyone else parents expose you to sexual behaviour? Mine having sex in hotel rooms with me in room on camp bed or other bed? Xx

Makealist Up until recently I've always ruminated a lot so I understand how compulsive it feels yet how pointless it is. I seem to have replaced ruminating with 'researching'. When I say researching I'm meaning I'll read here, recent and old threads, I'll search for keywords and read the advice given and so on. I know it's not exactly healthy or ideal but I find that I'm learning how real people think, feel and react and in a strange way I'm finding that it's helping me to sum up my own thoughts and feelings a lot quicker and more importantly guilt free.

coconut Yes! My mum does the face inviting a 'what's wrong?' too It's just clicked when you said about yours that it's an actual 'thing', or tactic. I've never been exposed to sexual behaviour, ever, as far back as I can remember my mum has done nothing but moan and complain about my dad and they'd go through extended periods of not taking so I've assumed it's a sexless marriage.

Toomuch I can relate to the what the fuck is wrong with me, the first two times I went for counselling was because I didn't feel normal but didn't know why. Looking back at those I suppose I just didn't engage, I went for the sessions but nothing really happened. I can't remember if I was asked about my parents but back then I would have clamped up or made out it was okay.

Flump Your family day sounds lovely.

I've been a bit down today, I'm cross with myself for not seeing all this sooner. It's been right under my nose and I've not seen it and now I have seen it I can't believe it's ever been escaped my notice because it's so obvious. My N mum is that confident that she doesn't even try to hide it. My OH said he knew she was odd the very first time he met her, over ten years ago.

Makealist a book on codependency might help maybe? I have Codependency for Dummies out of the library - it's nice and clear and easy to read but I'm only on chapter 2 so far so not sure if it covers eating disorders, but it's definitely good for how dysfunction in the family causes problems.

Massive blowup, I've been in tears most of the day.

Been disbarred from the family, with numerous "faults" lodged against me. I'm "the problem".

My daughter doesn't want to pick sides, she's 17. Whilst I was in hospital last week the on,y two people who visited were my DW and my DD. Everyone else couldn't even pick up a phone to see how I am.

Feel destroyed. Thinking of inserting a new middle name and using it as first name. I know people have done this in the past. Has anyone any views on the legalities?

This threads just so important to me yet again. I'm the one suffering, yet the one outcast from the family, seen as the huge issue.

If anyone has books they'd recommend that'd be great, if available digitally from Amazon, or the Apple bookstore that'd be even better.

I was to,d no stress after my operation, yet with this stress leve,S are through the roof. This threads amazing as always.

Hi Ste. I see you're up in the night. Maybe if we get some ideas about night time ruminating could be useful for you as well ! Hope things look different in the daylight.
I'm afraid that a very dysfunctional family WILL turn it all against you. That's the whole basis of family therapy. The Codependency for Dummies book suggestion sounds good ? Especially as it's in the air that you're trying to break out of your allocated scapegoat role ---which will in turn highlight their own problems and parts to play in this. You've opened Pandora's box. What might come out ? Oh No ! someone else might have to take on that role. Will it be one of them ?!

I've been beginning that process myself , so I have some idea. I told my narc DM that I was starting counselling [ to try to get her to give me some space - fits the family 'poor me' script]. It did - but also has invited her to want to 'talk' to me. After 60 years. Two texts full of manipulation and poor me. Bugger that.Also cue one family member going LC with me [doesn't want any possibility of hearing anything ?]. Nothing from the majority - lord knows what DM tells them - and ignoring is the norm. So ----basically LC to NC with whole family. Passive aggressive banding together in the hope of my not opening my mouth. Cos these people DO know.

You've got the more overt reaction - aggressive with no passivity. Victim blaming . Don't accept it. If they are so shit, do you actually need them ?? What do you get out of them apart from being made ill , by the sound of it ?

I think changing your name sounds great. As far as I've always known, any UK person can call themselves anything [ Common Usage ?]. To be official it has to go via a Deed Poll ? Suppose you have to let people know. I work in a University sometimes and students just say ' I want to be known in future as *' . Transitioning [ transgendering] etc. In my family, we had the old tradition of calling first born males the father's names - 3 generation of X, so one called by middle name, another a diminutive etc - even to old age. Especially popular with celebrity children - apparently Zowie Bowie is now Duncan . In America they call themselves things like J.Edgar Hoover .Think of the possibilities !

Damn. Posted the ruminating one twice. Thought I'd lost the first one. Duh .

My mum does the death stare as well if people aren't doing what she wants. My DS came to a family get together a few months ago and [ shock horror] refused more food. He said she gave him a look as though she hated him. I said well that's what's really underneath the sweet old lady persona. Welcome to my world.

When I [ nicely] asked her at Xmas about something she used to do to me [ god, brave or what ?] she actually did that eyes shifting from side to side bit , just like in cartoons. Then said she 'couldn't remember'. Never knew people really did that ! Amazing to watch.

Hi everyone... have been reading this thread and a lot of it is ringing bells for me. My m reckons she is the scapegoat of her family and that I am now scapegoating her. However I don't feel that I am doing this. She has been 'helping' me by looking after ds but last time she did this she hit him and I posted about it on here. I haven't seen her since and she's been sending letters saying I'm to blame for not trusting her, other people smack their grandkids and they're fine, he 'has her over a barrel' and controls her bc he can phone me at any time and can get me to come home.
I feel terrible that I may have exposed him to her and he has been hurt by her just like i was. I thought she had changed because she claimed to love him so much. But now I see she drains his energy like she did mine. Like other posters mothers she does the 'huffing' thing, always sighing yet says she doesn't! She stares like a hawk but won't meet my gaze when she realises I'm looking.
As a child she made me listen to all her problems and it was adult stuff I hated hearing it. She hurt me as a baby and because she was a social worker (!) and a 'respectable woman' she got to keep me.

But she terrorised me and my DB. She is now trying to manipulate him into thinking it is my fault. I feel like recently I have begun to see more clearly thanks to reading stuff on here and things on the web. I got the book The human magnet syndrome: why we love people who hurt us
It helps me as I know I am codependent in relationships. Or co-narcissistic or something. It helps explain how I gravitated towards partners who have the opposite orientation to me. i.e. people who devalue and ignore my emotional needs.

Hi Ste. I'm sorry you're feeling so crap at the moment. Your body needs all the energy it can get right now in order to heal your surgery. It is probably diverting some energy from your brain to the physical bit that's healing and that's making your - entirely justified - emotions more intense, which must be pants. Don't waste any of that precious energy on your family of origin. Your DD and DW love you - let them look after you.

Had a long conversation with DH this morning as he noticed I was reading the Codependency book and asked what it was all about. (In a nutshell, DF had prescription drug addiction issues and DM was codependent. But I think DM had the codependency tendency even before they met and even though he's now been dead 13 years she's still displaying all the traits, and some of them are a bit narc-y.) I told him about an incident I remember from my childhood when I was really tiny - I wet myself, was smacked for doing it and then was so upset at being smacked I wet myself again. We did get smacked as children by both DF and DM. So I said to DH, but everyone got smacked in the 1970s didn't they? And there was a long pause and he said no, he didn't. And that me and DSis are both lovely and he can't imagine we'd ever have been really naughty enough to deserve it even if it was more common. And then he said he wanted to give me a hug.

50 years that's taken to come out.

Hi all! I've been sent in that direction by a Mnetter. I've been posting a while about various incidents about my DM behaviour. I guess I'm at the beginning of my journey and some days I do wonder if I'm being over sensitive. I've been having counselling on and off for about 2 years now regarding my DM behaviour. I guess it's only just affecting me as I've come to realise the behaviour wasnt/isn't normal. My DD I would say can be abusive too but not as mentally abusive as my mum.

Some examples from my younger years would be excessive sulking. Made to walk on egg shells so to speak. I remember one year me, DS and DD went shopping for mothers day. She hated the present we all picked, sulked all day and refused to come to the mothers day meal. I must have been about 8 and so upset. She was very controlling. If she didn't like an outfit she would pressure us to change. She has a major thing about weight. Her and my dad always comments if I ate cakes etc at home. Calling me a big buffalo. Even now she goes on about me running etc to lose weight after having my LB.
Even now I try to please them and my sister can stir things if we have a disagreement. People say go NC but this scares the life out of me! I feel like they are slightly different in the sense that they do a lot for me physically but mentally emotionally they are not there. If I disagree with them then what they do for me eg. Help me move is thrown back in my face!
Sorry for long post just trying to get it a down. There so much more but we would be here forever lol

Sorry I just read above what you said scabbyhorse about co depending. I guess this is the term ive been looking for! I am in all relationships and same as you gravitate to people who devalue me and ignore my emotional needs!! Wow I finding have a term to put to how I feel!

midnight swirls it really doesn't sound like you're being over sensitive. at all! Putting you down is horrible and typical I think for narc mothers. Just because they do things for you doesn't make up for the other stuff.

Oh she puts me down allllll the time! When they met my ex for the first time we went for dinner. I actually had to say to my parents not to embarrass me eg. Make fun of me in front of him!! I mean what child has to say that to their parents. They normally would say I'm lazy, slow, I'm a buffalo.

Hi all, for everyone struggling at the moment.

Been trying out some of the suggestions I've been reading about CPTSD. It's brought back a lot of memories from my childhood that can only be described as shit. Feeling quite low this evening, helpless and vulnerable, it's like I'm a child again.

I'm hoping it's because it has to get worse before it gets better.

It does,sleepy. Sorry. It's like going through the stages of grief - cos that's what it is. Grief for the parenting you wish you'd had but didn't. It IS worth it. By learning to look back subjectively - and then hopefully objectively - your little child can begin to feel supported - by you as an adult. We're all somewhere along that journey in here.

I've been reading about co dependant parenting and found this. It hit a nerve and i burst out crying because it hit the nail on the head!

"For example, a co-dependent parent may believe that if a child is not perfect or if the child suffers it is the parent's fault. Therefore, the parent protects the child from making mistakes and from other painful experiences so that the parent doesn't have to feel guilt."