"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Chest that's true - I suppose if anybody who knows me finds themselves on this thread, it will be because they need it themselves...

I know what you mean about feeling shut out - but I'm trying to make an extra effort to keep in touch and spend time with the good people I know. Because I don't really want to be 'in' with a narc anyway. It's not a good place to be

Flump Thank you for understanding. You are quite right that I can't unthink stuff and that is what is making me angry. Since I've become aware I've noticed things a lot more, and remembered things I had just buried away - for example, DNeice came to stay a few years back, caught some bug or other and was sick all night; in the morning she was still vomiting so DSis and I decided the best thing was for me to take DN to DM's (halfway between us) where DSis would collect her to take her home. I arrived at DM's after a 2 hr motorway trip punctuated by vomit stops on the hard shoulder, having had v little sleep, and DM's response (no sympathy) was to comment 'offhandedly' that she wished I'd remembered to bring her a book to borrow as she'd run out of stuff to read. At the time I just thought that was a bit thoughtless on her part; now I think it was actually really self-centred!

Anyway I think I just have to work through my anger, though that is one of those phrases people use and I'm not really sure what it means. Just feel it and accept it, maybe, instead of pushing it away.

I think although your blow up with your DM must have been truly horrible, it has allowed you to see her as she really is, and that must be very freeing. You are lucky to have the support of your immediate family - though actually it's not luck, it's because you are a good person who has attracted other good people to be around her.

Treacle I think my DM is not quite a covert narc like yours, though she has some of the traits - she is damaged though, and maybe repeating patterns from her own childhood. But I might be wrong and I suppose I will find out though if I keep up the LC.

I have also been thinking about what you say about not planning what I will say and instead just being the authentic me. It is hard not to step back into that conditioned role where their feelings are more important though. I think I need to practise setting better boundaries around how she speaks to me, but not worry too much about how she might respond when I put those boundaries in place, and instead just have faith that my boundaries are good ones.

PS love the Grab Jar idea!

I'm back, I survived, nothing too untoward happened I don't think. Mum arrived first and greeted me with 'that face' and announced that she's soooo upset. I just said 'oh dear'. Turns out my dad has been losing his temper with her over what house to buy now that theirs has been sold. Dad sat there in a narky mood, mum sat there with her chin in her hand looking like she was about to cry. Both barely spoke.

The interesting bits are, when they were both sat there I asked how the viewing at 'whatever street' was like (I asked because it looked promising last time i'd seen them) I didn't get an answer. Dad was playing on his phone and mum was staring up in the air in the opposite direction. I'm used to this but today it felt really awkward and it even crossed my mind if I should tell them to bloody behave. I was even feeling a bit sorry for my mum and wondered if it was my dad afterall and she was a victim like me.

About 20 minutes later though, when my dad left and there was just me and mum she started. She took off her poor me face and replaced it with an annoyed one and these were her words 'Right! First of all if looks could kill... When YOU brought up 'whatever street' your dad looked at me with such hate and anger if looks could kill i'd be dead!' I honestly can't remember what I said, or if I said anything at all. It was only an hour ago and i've forgotten already. I know for a fact that I didn't apologise or comfort her though.

At another point she asked what my son was doing for his birthday tomorrow. Thing is, I don't want them turning up and i've not invited them round so I said he's not sure yet, she rolled her eyes (it was basically a repeat performance of last week, same conversation same reaction). I said (like I said last week), it's not him, it's his mates, they don't know if they'll be working or not, that's why he doesn't know what he's doing (last week this is where the conversation ended), today though she added, 'yes but what about what mum wants to do?'. I'm not actually sure if she meant me or her but either way I just replied with 'it's his birthday, not mine or yours, so he decides what he's doing'. That put an end to that conversation.

Nothing much else was said, it was mostly mum moaning about my dad and telling me about his temper and things he had said and done this week to upset her. I think she wanted me to tell her she was right and he was wrong, which I did a tiny little bit because she was really really going on about him and I said, Oh I know all about his temper'. She seemed to like it when I said that

It was okay being there, I don't know in the scheme of things whether this is okay behaviour but i'm used to it so I was okay during but afterwards, on the drive home and now I feel quite sick. Do you think this sounds like normal acceptable family behaviour or is it, weird?

If that's the sort of thing that happens every time then yes, it's a bit weird.

I should have said more than that. I haven't read all of your previous posts to get the whole context but it sounds as though she is getting her kicks out of playing the martyr to you.

Is it weird? Well, it's certainly familiar

What are your friends, your DH and your kids like? What are your coworkers like? Different, right?

Nail on head spare She has forever (even back to when I was a small child) said things so I'll feel sorry for her, sometimes it's worked sometimes it hasn't and sometimes it's obvious but it's seeming that other times it's not quite as obvious.

I remember when I first introduced her to my OH, I'd had quite a few boyfriends before and she'd met them all (she never liked any of them) but with my OH it was different, she really did like him and that made me feel really good. When I asked why she liked him but not the others she said because he talked to her, actually talked whereas the others weren't interested in what she had to say. I didn't find this weird at the time but ever since, and we've been together for 12 years, I've made a point of engineering things when we all meet up so he'll talk to her and then she'll be happy (Just so as you know when mum says people don't talk to her she means they don't listen, she's always called listening talking). I now think because she's always made a big fuss of no one ever listening to her I've been jumping into action to appeased her. I think that could be why she liked it when I finally said that I'm aware of what my dad's like because it was proof that I'd heard her.

TooMuch @ it's familiar.

Good point about everyone else. Xx

I'm not sure how to deal with her going on about my dad, selling and buying a house is very stressful, she could be like this for months. I think I need to gather a supply of platitudes and cliches to trot off because from previous experience what I actually say, and before it's always been genuine and heartfelt, she never takes any notice. A few months ago she'd got me worried sick by telling me that dad was bullying her but the next minute they were off having a whale of a time on a five week cruise they'd booked on the spur of the moment.

'She's always called listening talking' - there's proof right there of the sort of self-obsessed person she is. It did make me laugh (wryly) though.

Yy to listening = talking!

I put in a pretty mild basic boundary in response to my sibling wanting to visit last minute. I won't go into details but the whole thing has ENRAGED me. They've all been pretty odd and rude. In response to me being less pathetic and boundaryless than usual, my mother immediately called me and went for guilt trips, and she also did this pitiful injured voice. It has freaked me out. I feel really angry and sad, and yes guilty. I wish they would prove me wrong, you know? On the bright side at least I am certain now of my sibling's golden child status. What a bright side that is...!

Hi everyone, I wondered if I might have a bit of advice? It's hard to see things from different perspectives, I don't know if I'm making a fuss over nothing. When my anxiety kicks off I can't think straight and I'm quite anxious a lot of the time at the moment. I've had some great advice here before, I hope someone might remember me.

Okay so I've always had a strained relationship with my mother. She wasn't very kind and I suffered throughout my childhood. I don't want to go into all that too much but trying to explain a bit, I left home at 19 and moved 250 miles away. Contact became less and less and I'd say these past few years (I'm 35 now) I'm more or less at a place where I've come to terms with it all (or thought I had until now) Over the years I'd tried writing letters, phonecalls etc but she plays it all down or refuses to acknowledge it. She's amazing at turning it all back round onto me.

I didn't see my family at all for a year or two, then as I felt stable and wanted to see other family members and friends dh and I and the children would occasionally visit, say once a year or so and things seemed amicable enough though she still didn't want to spend any time with the children or me etc.

About 2 years ago my dh was diagnosed with cancer. Our dc were 9, 7 and 1 at the time. You can imagine how heartbroken and scared I felt, and how lonely. A couple of days after we'd been told dh was at work and I was a wreck at home, I thought I'd phone my mum and maybe she would support me. I was in bits on the phone, she didn't even sound that concerned. I just remember her ending the call abruptly saying "ok well I've got to go now, bye." I remember just looking at my phone thinking 'wtf just happened then?' And I've never felt so fucking lonely and scared in my life. I guess I should've known she wouldn't be stepping up, I'd ask for help before but she'd always make excuses like not affording the train or coach, not having the time (she's never had a job in her life) etc etc.

I was deeply hurt but had to crack on with things, obv. 3 weeks after diagnosis we moved house (we'd finally been able to buy our first own home by saving up etc) and so I was looking after dh and helping the eldest two get settled in a new school. I didn't know anyone but was so concerned about dh it didn't really matter you know? As part of dh's treatment he had to spend a week in hospital every 3 so I had a lot of time on my own. The evenings were the worst. The kids would be asleep and I'd be in the lounge, usually having a cry and wondering if that was going to be my life soon - just me alone without dh.

All during these months my mum didn't phone or even text me. I was stupid enough to think maybe she'd phone out of concern for her grandchildren but of course she didn't. I grew up in a very gossipy village where everyone knows your business, not through wanting to help in any way but just have something to talk about. When I'd told my mother I asked her to please not let the news leave her house - there's no one in that village who gives a crap about me, I certainly didn't want them knowing my personal business. She said she wouldn't, but then later on admitted that she had. My sister (17 at the time) let slip, then my mum was answering via text through her. The excuse was "she was so worried, she needed someone to talk to".... I said "how the fuck do you think I felt? You don't think I needed someone too?" but her need to gossip obviously trumped the people that was going through it.

Thanks for reading this far, sorry it's long. You're probably wondering what's brought all this to the fore. Well dh (thankfully still with me, just having recently reached a year of remission) and I had one of those lovely evenings recently where you stay up talking for hours and before you know it it's 4am and we were talking about when he was ill etc. He told me something he hadn't before - last august we visited my family. I get on very well with my brother and his partner, and we were all spending an evening together (the 4 of us). My brothers partner and dh went off to get some food whilst I stayed with my brother. Dh told me that in the car db's partner was saying how pleased she was dh was okay, and that she'd been talking to my mum about taking some time off work to come and stay with me and the kids whilst dh was in hospital, for some support. My mum told her not to bother some shit like "don't worry, they're prob alright" and that I'd have asked(!) Everyone who knows me knows I'm not the type to ask for help. I'm just so angry that she didn't even give me the chance to say yes please/no thanks. Wouldn't a mother say "oh that's a wonderful idea I'm sure she'd appreciate it"? At least let me know the support was there. My mum didn't even know what dh was going through, she just saw him months before diagnosis and then after treatment. She didn't need to look at him and how thin he was, and feel fucking sick with worry.

I'm so angry and upset. She doesn't give a shit does she. Oh she does the doting grandma shit sending cards an gushing to her mates but she's never THERE. I can't say anything because she throws it back at me, how angry I was as a child, how destructive I was. Why doesn't she look at herself and think 'hang on, maybe it's my shit parenting that started this? Why is my child so angry?'

I want to go no contact but if I explain why they'll all gang up on me and make into me being awkward/dramatic, if I don't contact them they just won't notice anyway. I just don't know what to do. They make out like I've always had this 'problem' I feel like going mad sometimes and that I must be so obviously unlikeable for even my family to dislike me so strongly.

I also find it hard when people say how short life is and how you should forgive/forget, I'd like to be able to but I can't when no one will step up or acknowledge anything that's happened. Like maybe if I'm holding a grudge or something I'm just making things worse for myself, even though I know my life is harder with them in it? If my mother was to die would I feel guilty forever for being angry with her and going nc? I guess it's not like she's felt guilty for her behavior so maybe I shouldn't either. It's really hard, and confusing.

I had to skip through your first post to check your DH had come through the treatment. Bloody hell, that must have been hard, specially with three little kids - and so fantastic that he is in remission.

Your mother sounds like an ignoring narcissistic mother. Only really interested in you when you offer an opportunity to make her look good. But it sounds like you already have a good handle on that.

It sounds like maybe your mother's behaviour during your DH's cancer treatment has brought back to you what it felt like to be un-cared for as a child. Have you thought about counselling?

Do you know what you want to do regarding NC? It sounds like you could just cease contact and you'd probably not hear back from her. Would that work? Do you want to stay in contact with your DB and his partner? And if you do, how do you manage that vs. no contact with your mother? Do you think your DB would be supportive if you explain your decision?

I also find it hard when people say how short life is and how you should forgive/forget

Fuck that shit. Life's too short to spend it with awful people. Look at the relationship you have with your DH. Sitting up chatting till 4am - that's an enviable relationship. It's you that's created that relationship. You know how to be good to people, you know how to be nice and how to build real relationships based on love and trust and honesty. There is no way that the "problem" is yours.

maybe if I'm holding a grudge or something I'm just making things worse for myself, even though I know my life is harder with them in it

I think one of the blessings or curses of growing up with a narcissist is that because you were never valued for yourself, you tend to be very flexible and able to see every point of view. I used to find it very hard to dismiss this line of reasoning because of that - it's true that I don't know how I'll feel when my mother dies (I'm nearly 2 years NC). But the people who say that to you don't know how you'll feel either. Only you can know. I guess there's two questions: whether you "should" feel guilty, whether you're doing something immoral - and whether you will actually feel guilty. FWIW I don't think there is anything wrong with cutting contact with someone who's never really been a mother to you. You know the difference, you know the effort you have to put in to make a child feel loved. You only get to claim mum rights if you've done the work, IMO.

I also don't think that you will feel as guilty as you might think if you go NC. I stayed in contact with my mother for years purely because I didn't want to feel guilty when she died (I felt a lot of guilt when my dad died, about not being around enough when he was ill/not being able to rescue him from my mum) and the first event that I didn't mark I did feel quite guilty, but soon after that I just stopped seeing her as my problem.

Hope some of that helps!

"I want to go no contact but if I explain why they'll all gang up on me and make into me being awkward/dramatic, if I don't contact them they just won't notice anyway. I just don't know what to do. They make out like I've always had this 'problem' I feel like going mad sometimes and that I must be so obviously unlikeable for even my family to dislike me so strongly"

I remember you Guy and was very sorry to read about your H's cancer diagnosis. Am very pleased to read that he is now in remission and for the past year too.

Do not give these people any of your own power here. They are not going to gang up on you if you do not contact them anyway and such flying monkeys if sent in by your mother should be roundly ignored. They are only acting in their best interests rather than yours and have their own agendas.

I would go no contact with your mother and without a second glance as well, she is toxic through and through and thus of no use nor ornament to you. You would not have tolerated that from a friend, your mother is no different. Its not your fault she is like this either, you did not make her that way.

I will post an article up re your second comment and hopefully that will help you as well:-

[[https://emergingfrombroken.com/what-if-my-mother-or-father-dies-before-we-resolve-our-relationship/]]

You do not have to tell them anything re going no contact; it can be done without any fanfare at all. Here too is a piece on going no contact:-

outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/no-contact

Thank you both very much for the very helpful replies. It helps to have some validation of my feelings. When we visited last year my mum had suggested babysitting during that time so dh and I could go out for dinner. That evening around 6pm she started getting ready to go out. Dh asks "oh, are you off out for the evening?" and mum goes "yeah I'm going to see X (gossipy friend) I haven't seen her for nearly a week". Dh was "well you haven't seen Guy and the kids for a year...." but she went out anyway. Lots of little things like that that don't always on there own seem like much but when it's all the time it's a bit...?

I could stay in touch with my db and his partner, he knows mum and I don't have a great relationship but just says shit like "yeah she's just like that/ah but you're an adult now, let it go/dh is fine now don't worry" so it's a subject we avoid. I'd be sad at not seeing my dad but again he was part of the problem and he's always been welcome to make contact just never bothered. My darling grandad and I are in touch each week, he's getting on now which worries me. I doubt my mum would tell me if anything happened anyway. My sister told me via text that my dad had cancer!

I guess I want her to know why I'm nc, but she wouldn't care anyway would she. I want her to know how much hurt she caused but I know she'd never feel that, because in her eyes she's not done anything wrong.

I'd considered counseling at various times, I had some years ago I just don't know if I can go through everything again.

Thanks for the links I'll go and read them now x

Guy I'm quite new to the thread and in no way an expert, but just wanted to say I've read your posts today and you and your DH sound as if you have a lovely relationship - I was so happy for you when I got to the bit where you said he is well now

I am with you on the dilemma of going NC. I have spent years putting up with my M getting me down and making me miserable; it's only been in the last few days where she had such a horrible shouting fit at me that she said my DH (who is lovely and supports me 100%) will want nothing to do with me when he finds out what I'm like (we've been married 17 years and are really happy ) - and that my children will to) - that I finally felt I had a legitimate reason to say enough is enough and she is no longer welcome in my life.

And YY to 'fuck that shit' regarding life being too short etc etc. Life is too short to waste spending time with narcissists. Spend it with the people you love and who truly love you - I wish I'd realised that years ago

Ps - well actually after reading that through I realised I've not directly told her that - I didn't get the chance to because she slammed the phone down on me...

But I'm assuming (hoping) she will keep away now after what she said.

Can u go NC by just doing it I'm wondering, or do you need to tell the person? Experience tells me it's a waste of time telling her anything. Also how do I explain it to my DC? They would usually see her every couple of weeks or so - sonetimes not for longer when she's doing a silent treatment. Do I tell them the truth? I have tried so hard to make their lives happy and now she's causing this shit for them

Flump I think you just do the NC. As you say, she won't understand anyway.

Having read more of what people have written and explored some of the links people have posted, I'm now beginning to think that my own mum IS a narc, an ignoring one, and not just damaged. It is the one thing that explains everything.

I have kind of gone LC already without calling it that, but I think I need to now formalise it in my head and decide exactly how much is enough and what boundaries I'll set in terms of visits/phone calls and responding to her behaviour. I've also been thinking how I'll explain this to my daughter. I think I'm just going to say that Nanny is not always a good person to be around, and that she wasn't always a good parent when I was growing up, and say that it's OK to spend less time with someone that isn't good for you, whether they're a relative or not. Would that sort of approach work for you? Daughter is 17, and already has an idea I think that Nanny's a bit 'odd', so I don't think it'll be a surprise to her.

Hi spare my eldest is 19 sonhe knows exactly what's going on - she's not made much effort to modify her behaviour aroubd him the last few years - he's refused to speak to her before because of racist or homophobic remarks she's made in front of him before. He pretty much just keeps his head down when she's around now, but according to her I have turned him against her

But my younger DC are a good few years younger, tweenage really, so it's hard to know what to say, My youngest used to seem to love seeing her GM, but over the last couple of years she's pulled away from her a bit. My M moans like hell that my DC 'ignore' her when she comes round, but for one thing it's not true, they come and say hi and then just drift off (probably because she's so bloody miserable all the time), and for another I'm determined to not let her guilt trip them, so I laugh in her face and encourage them to do their own thing. That goes down well as you can imagine...

But anyway, if they go ages not seeing her they will want to know why. I've already told them we've had an argument - they saw me upset and heard some of it sadly .

Just remembered something else my DSis said that's been playing on my mind. She said she thought our M needed counselling and what did I think? I didn't say much but I can't imagine her ever having enough insight or honest intention for it to ever work.

I think maybe my Dsis was thinking how can she fix it so we're all ok. Am I just being negative?

Flump No, you're not being negative. I can see where your DSis is coming from but there's no point.

Have also encouraged DD to 'do her own thing' when mum's around. Totally get where you're coming from there.

I think it's OK that your DC heard your argument, so long as it hasn't distressed them. Haven't come up with a rational reason for why I think that though, it's just my gut feeling.

Essentially by protecting yourself from her you are protecting them too, so that's got to be good, and override anything else.

Not negative. People like our mothers would never go to counselling because in their minds there is nothing wrong. It would be pointless.

People talk about conselling as if it was magic. Even if you're desperate to make things better, it's still hard work - and like you say golondrina they always think there's nothing wrong with them so why would they need counselling? I remember my mother when my uncle had counselling - I mean, christ, my auntie had just died, it was basically grief counselling - and my mother was all like "I just feel really sorry for people who need therapy. I suppose I've just been lucky, I'm just a naturally happy person." Wait what was that now? Have I dialed the wrong number or what?

Yes, totally agree. Counselling is about taking a long look at yourself and working out how to change the way you react to stuff, at least, CBT counselling involves a lot of that. These people would never do that. My mother, who my counsellor said displayed many narc traits and probably had a NPD, would just refuse to believe she was at fault, or...would turn it all round and end up weeping and wailing about what a terrible, awful person she must be, she might as well die, her life was over....drama drama drama...making it all about her AGAIN and solvign nothing. No change would actually happen, the onus would be on people to do something to comfort her and solve the problem.

I know you're all right - and I know my Dsis's intentions are good. I think atm she just thinks my mum is long term depressed or something and it's just made her bitter and angry. I have mentioned narcissism to her but she doesn't seem to grasp how our M is just the way she is and always has been - even though she agrees with me about all the horrible things from the past. I suppose she will just have to come to her own conclusion in time. I think she may think I'm being a bit too final about it all, although she hasn't said that.

I agree spare that it's not all bad that my DC heard some of it and saw how upset I was. I've always tried to hide away from everyone, especially the DC, if I'm crying. But DH has always said I shouldn't do that. They asked him if I was ok and he told them that yes I will be fine but that their GM had said some hurtful things to me and had upset me, which is why I was crying. I was a bit Nooooooooo!! about him telling them that but actually I think he's right - it's just another example of how my M has warped my idea of what's normal and what isn't