"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Guymartin I'm NC too with my parents. I've had other relatives contact me with 'oh but they're old etc, let it go'. However they are abusive to me and each other. I think forgive and forget, life's too short works with regard to functional relationships that have had a minor falling out. Dysfunctional families are completely different.

I read a saying once, 'sometimes you've got to meet people where they are, and sometimes you've got to leave them there.'

You sound really lovely, I hope your dh continues to be well. Build your own family and friends network who are supportive. You're not to blame. X

I've not been around for a while, I'm sorry. I wanted to drop in and share some things:-

Stately Survivors is well under development, and definitely a goer. It's a site focused on surviving the horrors of emotional/sexual abuse and the persistent horrors that pursue us throughout our adult lives, allowing everyone to have a private blog.

For me, I'm undergoing therapy, four or five sessions now. Whilst my therapist is a lovely woman, she feels I'm unable to express my hurt and my pain. I did manage to express it to her by admitting listening, and connecting to music is the way, the only way, I feel able to open my soul and allow my pain to rise to the surface/be exposed. Darren Hayes - Darkness is a perfect example. The lyrics "Its hard to take control when your enemies old and afraid of you. You discover that the monster you were running from is the monster in you. Better to hold on to love". is a great example - the monster created within me by decades of emotional abuse and the sexual abuse is thankfully no longer added to as I rarely, rarely speak to mother anymore, but the hurt and pain created is stored within an so, so destructive. Whole song hits hard when referring to my childhood.

I'm not sure where my path will lead or where therapy will take me, I'm struggling to think of a way I can take down my barriers and allow someone, even my DW, to see my pain. Am thinking of expressing some lyrics on my personal website, unvisitable by anyone but me, as a way of expressing.

I have taken the step of changing my first name however. The original is too connected to my past. I'm toying with the idea of changing my surname also. A trivial but important first step I think.

Can I share something and get a second opinion?

I've recently begun to see DM and SD again after a year of NC. At the end of that year I sat down and carefully explained why I had done it. They nodded agreement, but I'm inclined to think they were just making a show of agreeing. SD still made some comments about how I had affected DM so much that she couldn't sleep at night - i.e. it sounded as though they still saw me as the aggressor for cutting contact. But I decided to give it a try.

SD has done a few things lately that really make me question whether I want them to have any role/influence in DD's life, whether I even want to live near them. This stuff might sound crazy to anyone not on Stately Homes, but I have run it by another Stately-survivor type that I know in RL, and her immediate reaction was that SD sounds 'conniving' so maybe I'm not going mad.

It's about the (SD specifically) undermining me with DD, not respecting my role as her mother and even trying to openly go against me, in front of me. DD is 3 so it's not so much an issue now, but I'm starting to get concerned that as she gets older, the kind of behaviours i'm seeing could affect my relationship with DD. I'm a LP and have worked so hard and we have such a close relationship, there's no way I want that. I'm also keen to protect DD's self-esteem and worry they say such stupid things, they could hurt her - even without intending it, because they do n't think.

Example 1) we go to their house, DD hasn't eaten for hours as she just woke up, I ask DM to make her some beans on toast which she sets about doing. SD offers her ice cream - i say no please don't do that as she needs to eat the proper food first. 30 seconds later SD does it again - again I say the same. 2 minutes later while I am talking to DM, SD leads her to sit at a table next to the older GC who are each eating massive bowls of ice cream because they finished their main meals, and highlights the ice cream to her. I go over, say loudly and firmly, please don't do that, if she sees the other GC eating that she is clearly not going to want to eat her main meal. SD mutters something, looks rebellious and goes back to DM while I take DD down from the chair.

Example 2) DM and SD drink a lot, including while looking after the GC. I have already said that DD will not be staying with them overnight or without me unless they agree to not drink like they do. In response I got a barrage of messages about how I can't tell them what to do in their own homes, am trying to give them ultimatums. I didn't respond, but have always stayed with DD while she is at their house. The last time we were there, having a meal, SD openly asked DD whether she wanted to stay overnight, in front of me. I didn't say anything - luckily DD told him no, I want to sleep in my own bed. I didn't say anything but was spitting mad and haven't been back since. If DD had said yes, I feel it would have put me in the position where I look like the baddy, and DD is too young to know she is being manipulated. It's stuff like this I can se getting worse as she gets older.

What do you think - there are more examples, it's mainly SD being sly, is the best way I can describe it. DM will blindly follow him so there is use talking to her about it, she will just make excuses for his drinking and defend him. She is highly co-dependent, and also I am the scapegoat I believe (my sister the golden child - they are practically her maidservants)..

Right now, DD has not begun school. It would be hard, but I do have the option to move away and raise her well away from them. I feel bad either way because she doesn't have any other family (her Dad has never wanted to see her). Damned if I do and damned if I don't sort of thing.

Champagne I'm quite new to the thread and am in no way an expert but I am left wondering why you have started seeing these relative again after a year of no contact? Who initiated the first meeting?

I'm wondering because from the examples you give it seems clear that their toxic dynamics (as you describe them) are still firmly in place and they seem to be completely disregarding the boundaries you want and need regarding yourself and your DD.

I don't think having no other family is a reason for allowing toxic relatives in her life. No family is better than a toxic one - much less damage done. But I do understand that sentiment completely because I only have a small family, and have put up with things I shouldn't have in the past for the same reason.

Do you have to move away to stop seeing them again? If you've had a year of NC living where you are, I mean?

But anyway, these instances are troubling you for a reason - and I agree that your SD and DM were initially agreeing with you to reel you back in, and now they have you there, you will be expected to fit right back into where you were before

They're pushing boundaries all the time OP. These people want to control. You'll never change them. I ended up going no contact when ds was 7 as they were manipulating him and undermining my parental authority. I'm the scapegoat too. I'd move.

Sorry, meant champagne

Champagne

re your post and this comment:-
"It would be hard, but I do have the option to move away and raise her well away from them".

Your SD and mother are really one and the same; they are both conniving and as toxic as ever. If your SD is allowed to continue in the same vein he will indeed steal the heart and mind of your child. Its being done by him to get back at you.

These people were not good parents to you, a mistake often made by many adult children of toxic parents is that such disordered people are somehow going to become decent as grandparents figures. They do not, these people have not fundamentally altered and still blame you for their inherent ills.

Chaapagne,

I would also seize upon the option of moving away and not leaving them any forwarding address.

Surround both yourself and your child with people who are radiators; not drains like your stepfather and mother. Having no other family is simply not a good enough reason to have either of them in your life at all.

My parents moved 1000s of miles away to be with the golden child. Saved me the cost of moving and I live my life unencumbered by the stress of bumping into them.

I've seen my Dsis over the weekend. It was good to see her without our M being there and we did have a talk about things in the past and I think it helps to hear that she remembers things the same way that I do. She spent most of last week with our M staying at her house and said she spent a lot of it just trying to keep out of her way. She also said our M was talking about 'the argument' a lot and my sister felt she spent most of the time biting her tongue to stop her arguing with our M's versions of things because it would have been so easy for it to turn into a big argument.

But I did a stupid thing - and I do think it was my fault for asking. I asked my DSis if our M had seemed sorry at all or realised how horrible the things she'd said to me were. My Dsis looked uncomfortable but then said ' yes, she's clearly upset but she definitely doesn't think that she's done anything wrong, in her mind it's all you (me)'. Then she said was it true that I owe her money? I was confused for a minute because no, I don't. Then she said that our M kept saying that she can't believe I am treating her this way because when I left my abusive ex about 20 years ago, he had left me with some debts he'd taken out either jointly with me or fraudulently in my name. The debt collectors got nowhere with him so started chasing me for them. I was in a bad way at the time, with a new baby, no money, no home, my ex harrassing and threatening me. I told my M and she offered to pay them off and did. I can't even remember how much it was now but it wasn't a huge amount, hundreds not thousands. But she offered to pay and I was grateful. She never talked about me ever paying it back - I said at the time I didn't know how I ever would be able to and her attitude was
'forget it, it's only money, and it wasn't your fault it was his (my ex).' And the thing is, it's not been mentioned again - ok that's not true. She has mentioned it now and again, but never in the way that it was a loan and I owe her, more that I was in such a muddle and she helped me (and yes I've always been grateful for that).

And i admit, over the years the fact that she did pay it off for me has made me feel I have no right to object when she does or says something horrible. And I'm feeling that way again now. Because as much as she said, 20 years ago, to forget it, she hasn't forgotten it. And now I feel shit and right back down in the gutter where I was then

badtaste I"m trying to remember now why I did start seeing them again! ..honestly, DM had been sending me text messages every couple of months that year. Mostly either telling me I was childish etc for going NC, or some kind of guilt trip or information that was designed to have me curious/back in touch. I ignored them all and as I saw it was getting back in touch in my own time. Partly out of guilt, thinking to myself that enough was enough and I should at least explain myself and give them another chance. Oddly enough, SD was not sly/goady so much before the NC. But more recently I've either noticed it, or he has really stepped it up. DD is older now - she was a baby 2 years ago, so he wouldn't have been able to 'influence' her and get between the two of us as he did in those examples I gave. Now she is at an age where he can.

Um... yes I did have a year of NC living right where I am, so it is possible. But as DD gets older, I'm worried about them turning up or bumping into them while NC, and them being able to talk directly to DD which they couldn't do last year. Can't see it happening that often, but it is more possible from this age.

On the other hand, this village and her friends and this house are all DD has ever known. I don't want to uproot her whole life just because of them. I want to do what is best for her in all of this. At the moment, although DM and SD don't know it, I'm probably going to go for gradual LC, and a passive aggressive approach of 'oh no sorry we are so busy, we have plans, can't see you then' if they ever ask to see us. I can't see them making much effort and we might just get away with it..

Lissette yes I've grown up without really being allowed boundaries and know I have trouble even recognising where they should be. I can see SD is pushing them - very openly, in front of me.. I told the stories above to someone I know and they said I showed remarkable restraint especially about the overnight thing and they would have probably punched him.. I wouldn't go that far, but it's reassuring to know I'm not just overreacting, as I was wondering before that, whether I was.

Attila I don't understand why SD would want to get back at me though, what for? - do you mean for the NC last year? He's only married my DM since I left home, so it's not like he should expect to have much of a relationship with me, or my DD. It definitely, definitely feels like a power play though - I don't like it at all, openly pitting my DD against me. And not even out of my sight/hearing - right in front of me!! he knew exactly what he was doing. I almost walked out right then and there (almost wish I had now) - was it designed to actually provoke a conflict with him? I which case, why would he want me out of the way? - my mind starts to spin, I over-analyse everything.

Moving away.. the tough thing is doing that completely on my own as a LP. To somewhere where I don't even have an emergency contact. It feels like a scary thing to do. But I really do want to protect DD, and our mother-daughter relationship, at all costs to myself.

Flump that few hundred quid was a great investment of your mother's. It kept you in the FOG for ages and now that you're showing signs of coming out of it, it neatly converts into a loan that she can use to badmouth you to other people.
This is why you and your sister need to keep talking. Assume anything you heard from your mother was wrong. She'll have been setting you against each other for years but as long as you keep talking, she won't be able to.

Flump great advice from toomuch.

I discovered a year or so ago from my DSis that my DM was badmouthing me to her behind my back. Before then I wasn't aware of how two-faced she was. It made me feel very naïve that I hadn't realised up until then.

Anyway, we now have a sort of tacit agreement that if DM is nasty about either of us to the other, she gets stonewalled, and if that doesn't work, we don't pass the bad stuff on to the other. In reality it is she that usually has to do the stonewalling as she's the GC and I'm the scapegoat. But I think on balance I am happier not knowing the crap she sometimes thinks of me. The rational part of me knows it will be nonsense and this way the FOGged up bit of me doesn't get activated - or not by that route, anyway.

Thanks too that all makes sense.

My sister seems quite confused by it all. She's asking me lots of questions and maybe just doesn't know what to think. Part of me thinks I just shouldn't ask her what our M has said at all, but it's really hard when I know she will be telling DSis all sorts of shit. I suppose like you say, the more we talk, the better. My sister knows our M has been lying about things; she said our M trips herself up - she is now denying ever saying some horrible things to me a few weeks ago - but at the time she told DSis she did say it, but that I twisted it and made it mean something it didn't. She's obviously forgotten that.

It makes it hard when me & my sister have never really been close though - so she probably doesn't know who to believe now

Hi spare. Our M has always slated everybody behind their backs - I think we've both always just tried to ignore it. But now with everything that's happened, our M is obviously ramping it up with her.

Hi everyone. Question for you.

When I moved out years ago I left some boxes of childhood etc stuff. A year ago my parents did some clearing out and went through some of the stuff and took photos of a some of it for me but I think most of it they just threw out. I was so furious and horrified at the time I didn't dare go near it emotionally and so I let it go.

But I didn't let it go. Every few days I remember it and it's like a stab to my heart. They might not even have thrown it out, I don't know for sure. But I think they did and I'm so afraid to ask because I don't think I can cope wit h how devastating I will find that emotionally (I know that sounds OTT but there are reasons). In any case it's mine not theirs!

If I ask to have it they will want to know why and I will have to convince them. Also it will be a hassle to get it over here.

But I want it back. It's my stuff. But what do I say if the answer is it's all in the bin?!

Hi Chest - that's a good question. I had similar recently - at the risk of repeating myself (I am...) I have been upset for ages that my M apparently threw away the only video tape of my dad, and was very dismissive about it "Oh, that old thing, I don't know what happened to it, it was probably too knackered to even play, it might have been gotten rid of when I moved, I had so much stuff, etc etc'...

This is from somebody who's attic is a hoarder's paradise . But apparently collections of lampshades from the last 30 years are more important than the only family film containing my dad. There were other things (albums, book collections, etc) which she had also apparently 'had to throw away' because they were 'mouldy, musty, broken...' etc.

So it's been winding me up for ages, and I hated the fact that she was also in possession of all our family photos and of one particular album which was my dad's from before he met my M - it has his writing all over it and is one of very few things in existence that was just his. I was so worried that at some point in the future I would mention it and my M would pull that 'mock confused' face and say 'Oh that, I had to get rid of that years ago, it fell apart...'.

So a few weeks ago DH and I went to her house on the spur of the moment (we were literally driving past the bottom of her road) and he suggested we go to her house and borrow the photo albums so I can scan them all - then whatever happens I have them. So we did. She wasn't there so I used the key she gave me to let myself in and borrow them. I left her a note to say I'd borrowed them.

But now as you know that makes me a thief apparently.

So my gut feeling is that if your parents are anything like my M, they will see it as a chance to score points and upset you and won't just hand it over - or maybe even be honest about whether they still have it or not.

But if it's important enough to you, as it was to me, I would have to try and get it back. Could you brace yourself, go over in a car with room in the boot and just front it out and ask them for your stuff? There's always a chance you will come away with at least some of it.

It's funny really, me 'borrowing' some photo albums (which weren't all actually my M's anyway..) has been the final thing that made my M flip at me so badly that I've decided enough is enough and that I don't want her toxic shit in my life or the lives of those I love any more. So I'm glad it happened - I got my photos and I got to stop struggling with trying to decide how much I should put up with from her.

My DSis told me at the weekend that our M told her she 'can't understand why I think those photos are so important - most of them don't even have anything to do with me'

Well apart from about 20 pics out of around 250, they are all of my family members - including my dad and also including me! But I am apparently now such a non-person that I have no right to them...

Anyway, I'm really sorry this 'reply' is so long. I'm feeling angry again today as you can probably tell . But depending on if you feel ready for the possible fallout, I would try to get your stuff back. It's obviously important to you

Xposted with you worst

I think what you say is right - maybe our 'stuff' is becoming more important to us now as we are grappling with understanding who we really are, and what's important to us, rather than what we've always been told we should be and think.

At the end of the day, having old photos of my dad back in my possession brings me more comfort than having my real life mother in my life has done for a long time. Which just goes to show how bullshit that relationship was.

You know Chest If I thought I lived anywhere near you I would drive you over there myself - I have a car with a very large boot . I'm serious - you can PM me if you like

ste good to see you back on here. Hopefully the therapy will help things. I can relate to the name thing. My name is easily shortened but my m refused to let anyone call me by it when I was growing up. Now everyone I know uses my nickname. Only my parents ever use my full name and hearing it makes me cringe.

flump it sounds like your m is clinging on to everything she can to get back at you. She helped you out with a few hundred pounds not paid you to take her crap. I would be tempted to send her the money back but it would probably lead to more drama.

champagne just what others have said. Stay as far away as possible. If you do move then your DD will adjust and she probably won't even remember much about it in a few years. I would question the support you have now and if it's really worth the stress caused by your sd. I live quite close to my m but it means we are also close to DHs family, who are lovely. My m has made a couple of pathetic attempts to manipulate my eldest DD (she's also 3) but I'm fully prepared to cut her off completely should she step it up.

chest it's your stuff so you don't need to justify why you want it, I appreciate that it may not be that simple though. could you just tell them that you are having a sort out at home and have remembered that you have some things stored at their house so would like to go through that as well. You might just have to prepare yourself for the fact they've thrown some of it away. I would try not to react in front of them if they have though.

Yeah I think once they know those things mean something to you, they'll end up giving you some manner of grief over them, and you might even precipitate them getting thrown out if they haven't been already. The best way is if you can find a pretext for having a look yourself if you're at her house.

It's one thing I really regret that I didn't try to get more photos and stuff from my mum's when I left. I have a handful of photos, mostly from my auntie, who once did me a photo album of all of us and my little cousins. I miss her (she died years ago).

A couple of years after I left home my mother took everything I'd left behind and donated it to the British Heart Foundation shop. It was one of those ones where if you confronted her now she'd go "oh I didn't think it bothered you" because I didn't say anything but you guys know what it's like, the only thing that happens when you complain is that they get an extra little frisson of pleasure from confirming that they've fucked with your head. Once when I was back at my parents' for Christmas I found an old video tape I'd used to record music videos off TOTP and the Chart Show. I'd done it over about 2 years, all my favourite music, I'd decorated the paper case the video came in, and I'd screwdrivered off the write protect tab. So we're back at my parents' for Christmas and I put the video in one night, me and DH, sitting with a bottle of wine after my parents had gone to bed... and all that's on it is episodes of a soap opera. She'd covered the write protect tab and recorded over it. It's often that sort of stuff that really does my nut in, because it's hard to think about the overt abuse - but really, why would you bother having a kid in the house if you couldn't even enjoy the things that they make? She hadn't even bothered to chuck the cardboard cover it came in, was happy enough to use it for her fucking soap opera tape, even though it was covered with the names of the bands that had been recorded on there before she wiped it.
I'm on a roll now, I've got to tell the wedding photo story. My mother wanted to hire a professional photographer for our wedding even though it was tiny (8 of us) and only DH managed to convince her not to because his (narcissistic but possibly not the full NPD) dad was bringing his big camera. FIL spent about 90% of the day taking pictures and we asked him just to pass the negatives onto my mother but being a narc he ignored us and instead presented us with a wedding album - we didn't get to choose the photos, and never got to see the ones that didn't make the cut. Having no negatives to pass to my mother we gave her the album and she took all the photos out of it, threw it away and bought her own album to put her photos in. We did our own album with photos that we and my best mate had taken on the day on a £15 35mm camera. A couple of months ago DD2 (5) did a drawing of me and DH in our wedding clothes and I framed it and hung it on the wall. It's my favourite picture of my wedding. I could almost hear my dad at my ear going "the adults are all mental, it's only the kids that have got any sense".

Sleepy yes I have thought it would be good to just send her a cheque but firstly, it won't shut her up, and secondly, she does this thing where she takes a little bit of truth and then twists it so it's not a total lie, which makes it easier for people to believe her.

And she told my sister a completely twisted version of how I apparently owe her money, as in making it sound like much more than it actually was, as well as other embellishments like that now it was a 'loan'. And I'm fucked if I'm sending her more money than it actually was in the first place. All that wine I could buy with it

toomuch as much as that's a really sad story, I love the ending and I bet your wedding 'photo' is beautiful