"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's February 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

sleepy I'm glad you're getting along well with that book, I really loved it. It was like a written description of me. I keep coming back to it.
[Flowers] sorry about your FIL.

Flump it is really cool that you had that conversation with your sister. It's so rare to get validation for this stuff, and it's so helpful. And your mother won't be able to triangulate between you any more

Thanks toomuch. It's been a really strange 24 hours. I'm bloody knackered and don't know if I'm happy or sad or what . I think I'm due to fall asleep on the sofa any minute so at least I feel calm

Thank you so much everyone on here for all your support today

Wow flump! How are you today?

Iknow I can't really advise as my situation is different. But I guess I'd say try to keep it civil but minimal, and avoid her if possible! How do you feel about it?

Wow flump! How are you today?

Iknow I can't really advise as my situation is different. But I guess I'd say try to keep it civil but minimal, and avoid her if possible! How do you feel about it?

Hi chest I feel a bit shell-shocked but actually ok!

I know nothing about my M that I didn't already know. The things she said were horrible, but as DH said to me this morning, they are actually nothing compared with the way she has treated me over the years.

I hope she will keep away from me now, at least for a while. I think she will, not out of decency, but because in her head she will be 'punishing' me again, and keeping away because of the 'evil way I have behaved' etc...

Long may it continue. - honestly, today all I can think about the situation is 'fuck her'. I've not cried or even felt anxious once today.
She seems to have used up her quota of any other emotions I could have found for her at the moment.

I haven't been on here for years, but I wanted to say to Flump that your mother sounds exactly like mine and this blow up sounds exactly like the one I had with that precipitated NC. I'd been trying to lower contact for a while and she just upped the ante.
It's a horrible thing to go through, but we have now been NC for 2.5 years and although it is hard in many ways it is so so so much more peaceful. I was goodtobetter back then (autumn 2014) and posted about it.
I'm sorry you have to go through it, but life is better without people like this in it.
xx

Thank you Golondrina - I will have a look at your old posts. People warned me she would up the ante - and clearly they were right. But there are so many good people in the world - and on here - I'm determined not to let one sad old narc get me down .

Hello. Can you advise? It's hard to get advice from folk in RL as they don't see how bad my narcissistic mother can be.

I'm now usually in control and keep my awful family - my narcissistic mother and her flying monkey family members - at arms length. But she's now demanding that I work for her even though I'm too ill to do it. She will compensate me a bit, but she has just bought my 'd' sis a new house in a good area in London!! Initially she said she could offer me more, but since speaking to Dsis, she's completely back tracked.

She's insisting I do it and won't take no for an answer. She's tried to get my dad to force me to as well, even though he doesn't know the whole story and I had to explain to him what is going on.

To be frank it's totally doing my head in and making me much more ill through the stress. My physiotherapist has suggested counselling. I did have DV counselling about my exH before and the sessions ended with me talking about her all the time!

Has anyone here had counselling because of an abusive family, and did it help?

Or should I just go nc and save the NHS a few pennies?!! I am a bit concerned about going to counselling TBH as she and ex H tried to get me sectioned (although I have a neurological illness) because I refused to do what they say all the time...

Sorry about the ramble. Any advice would be appreciated.

Hello. I have just joined MN but have been a long time reader of this thread. It has really helped me to know I'm not alone.

My DF died in 2004 but was a long term sufferer of depression/anxiety and addicted to Valium for many years. The withdrawal from Valium is pretty difficult and takes time, but it took him over 20 years! We spent our childhood tiptoeing around him, but were not allowed to talk about it and had to pretend to be the perfect family. After I left home he was also on one or two occasions (that I know of) violent with my DM and DSis.

At the time I thought DM was a saint but have realised in the last few years (I'm 50 - this has taken a long time to work out!) that she was his enabler; also that she herself has spent pretty weird ideas and quite a poor sense of her own identity. She spends a lot of time 'helping' other people but not really through any real empathy, more because she is programmed to do it to get positive feedback from other people, if that makes sense. Maybe a martyr complex or something. But at the same time she's quite judgemental and moany and has some values that are quite at odds with mine and has made me feel uncomfortable for a long time without really knowing why. I have deliberately kept my own DD at arm's length from her because of how I feel about her - again, without really knowing why. I've tried to have a grown-up relationship (one of two equal adults) with her but never succeeded because I think she sees me and my family as adjuncts to herself and expects us to fulfil her needs by giving her 'grandmotherly' experiences she can use to bolster her image of herself.

I realise now that I feel she kind of colluded with my DF's condition and possibly made it worse, because she gets a kick out of being thought of as the saintly wife. And in behaving like that, she failed to protect me and my DSis from the fallout of my DF's behaviour and left us with some warped ideas of how relationships are supposed to work.

In the last six months or so I've moved from just intellectualising my understanding of her to actually feeling the anger I should have felt when I was little. The trouble is, she now makes me feel angry ALL the time! Also, although I have always lived my life as I wanted to (I discovered quite early on that escape was the best route out and although I've made mistakes I now have a happy life and a lovely DH and DD) I have never really contradicted her to her face or pulled her up on some of her nuttier ways of seeing the world. In particular if she's subtly judging me I have always ignored it, whereas now I seethe and want to tell her where to go.

Sorry, long post. I think she knows something has changed between us recently but I don't suppose she has any idea what. I have also reduced contact with her as DD is nearly 18 and I don't feel the need to engineer meetings for her sake as I used to. I am feeling nervous at the thought of what will happen if she challenges me on how things have changed. I don't think she would understand if I tried to explain. And if I don't explain, what do I say instead?

Spare I don't really have any answers - sorry - I'm new to all this myself. But I wanted to say that although our past situations are different, a lot of what you say about your mother resonates with me. I have felt uncomfortable and unable to relax and be myself around my M for years, and probably all my adult life. At the same time I have felt guilty about not wanting to spend time with her because she can be really nice, to the point of doing way too much, even when you don't want or need her to. And I've always felt that when she's not running round trying to be an important part of other people's lives, there's nothing else there, like she has no life or identity of her own. But at the same time as apparently doing anything for you, she could switch in an instant and be the coldest, most angry and hurtful person, and also just randomly say completely inappropriate things (sexual comments, racist and homophobic opinions, etc).

I, like you, now have a lovely family of my own who treat each other well, and over the years I suppose that's made her 'stick out' like a sore thumb because the way she behaves is so different to everybody else around me. But it's literally in the last few months that I've tried to go v low contact, and she has responded by getting nastier and nastier, and had a default 'angry' attitude.

Anyway it was driving me nuts so I did some reading on the subject, and started talking on this thread, and a few weeks ago it all just clicked. It was as if all the evidence had been there all my life, but I suddenly realised just how damaged and damaging my M is (she is almost definitely a narcissist). And my point is, as soon as I had that realisation, I knew I didn't want her to have any influence on my life, or my family, any more. And once you know that, you can't forget it, I think. So I think maybe that's why she is making you angry all the time. You know she's bad for you, and every fibre of you is screaming at you that you don't want this in your life - and that voice is going off in your head constantly, because she is constantly being 'her'. Well actually that's just my experience, but maybe that's what's happening with you too?

I am now at the point where she left me alone for three weeks then phoned me and had the worst rage at me she's ever had -I'm an evil little girl, I ruin everything I touch, blah blah. I was so upset after that phone call but weirdly it was only three days ago and I feel kind of ok now. And relieved that I can (and have) make the decision that I do not want to see her, with a clear, obvious reason that no one can argue with.

It's really hard but we are lucky to have good people in our lives and we will get there

awana I've not had counselling about any of this although I think it could be hugely beneficial. I've had CBT in the past for anxiety, but I always felt like it was like putting a sticking plaster over the problem, leaving it still bubbling away underneath.

If you have the opportunity to have some counselling I would go for it. It's easy for me to say but I wouldn't let your ex & your mother's threats and actions in the past stop you. Did they manage to get you sectioned? I bet they didn't! It was nasty, bullying tactics to keep you in line

Hi Spare I'm experiencing the same thing, in that I sense that my mum (I think covert narc describes her the best) is aware that I've become different lately too. I am different in that for the past month I've not been giving her anything she can feed off. I still meet up with her for a coffee once a week but I have no news (or gossip or opinions or plans), I've just been working & yknow, like housework n stuff.

I've always been told I'm 'too' sensitive but I think what children from dysfunctional families have learned to do from a young age is pick up on very subtle and slight cues, signs and signals as it can lead to some of protection. Normally, I use that word loosely, it would be typical to adjust behaviour until those initial ever so slight bad feelings have subsided as this means we can relax for a while. The issue that I'm having, and it might be the same for you, is now that I'm actually aware that I have been conditioned (emotionally abused) to behave like that, i.e. Put my parents emotional needs before my own, it feels as though I have lived my life with no free will. That makes me angry, but it's also making me want to find myself. It makes me want to know who I really am.

I sense that something is brewing with my mum, I catch her from the corner of my eye scanning me like she's looking for something. I have ignored my senses when they have alerted me that she's displeased with how I am behaving and I have not adjusted. From reading here I know I'm playing with fire at this stage but doing this feels so right. I've not 'done' anything wrong, I've just been boring, so if I have somehow terribly misjudged her the worst thing that can happen is that she'll show concern for my boring life, but if I'm right and she's a hungry narc then it will blow up at some point, I'm aware of that. So, I too have wondered what to do if/when she says anything and after doing lots of reading I personally have concluded that I'm not going to plan to do anything. This might sound odd and a missed opportunity but my reasons are because even though I should know my mum I honestly do not know what she'll do or say so I could spend hours, days, weeks, preparing for the what ifs and she could still sideswipe me. Another reason is, I want to be me. It's the old 'conditioned' me that would plan what to say in the event of an impeding crisis (although previously it would be to pacify her as opposed to get my side of things across). Finally, I believe people like her just will not listen, they're not capable, so what's worse, saying nothing or bearing my heart and soul only to be ignored?

Gosh, long post.

I shouldn't have said 'long post' in the above. I must stop behaving apologetic. Xx

Hi treacle - your post got me thinking

As you know it definitely 'blew up' for me. And my 'plan' was to disengage, to not let her upset me and to hold it all in. But when she started attacking me I felt so angry and it felt so unjust that I shouted back at her. It was hard to get a word in but I was so angry I managed to say that she had no idea what 'decency' was and argue with other things she said before she slammed the phone down. Afterwards I was so angry with myself that I let her get to me, but your comments about wanting to be you made me wonder if it's not such a bad thing that I got angry with her and told her basically told her what I thought of her.

I know that you shouldn't let a narc push your buttons, but at the same time, it's the first time I've ever truly argued back and stood up for myself - and basically not asked her for anything, just told her she's talking shit. I'm hoping there's something positive in that somewhere

awana have you thought about going NC and having counselling? Or is your mother the only issue, you're quite happy aside from dealing with her?

I would say if you do do counselling, be careful to go into it with the aim of making your life better, and not just turning yourself into someone who can better withstand her mother's onslaughts so she can carry on being a pain in the arse. These people are awful by anyone's standards but we're specially trained to respond to their tactics, and I would ask whether you want to have that source of misery continuing in your life? On the other hand you might feel that the consequences of NC (grief with extended family, don't know what to tell people etc) are worse than dealing with your mother. Either way it should be about you and your preference. I think CBT would probably help if you just want to have some tools to help you withstand her a bit better, and that's usually what people get offered on the NHS. I think longer term talk therapies are better if you're going LC/NC because you tend to unearth big stuff and it can be quite emotionally unbalancing and you don't want to be doing that while you still have to keep your hard shell on against your abuser, IYSWIM.

Are you worried that the counsellor will believe your mother or relativate the abuse (the sort of "everyone has their own view of events, what seems scary to a child can actually be quite normal, she's your mother I'm sure she loved you although she didn't show it in the right way" bollocks)? I've been to two therapists and neither of them had any bother accepting my version of events and condemning what happened. I said to them both at the start though, that I firmly believe my mother has NPD, and that she was abusive, and that while I didn't expect them to diagnose her at one remove, I needed them to listen and then tell me honestly if it sounded correct. Because, I think particularly because in narcissistic abuse there's so much lying and gaslighting and manipulation, you need to have someone else validate your version of events (=the truth). I think it's worth just going in and being honest about that and see what they say. You don't want to find out 3 sessions in that they don't believe you.

Sparebedroom that is tricky. It sounds like you are pretty happy in yourself, your relationship with your mother is functioning, it doesn't cause you any pain - am I right in thinking you'd be quite happy to just keep it arms length and your mother can think of herself as a nice grandma with a nice family etc etc? Or do you want to talk to her about it?
My guess would be that if she is annoyed at the lower contact she won't bring it up with you in so many words, she'll indirectly push for more contact, she'll find reasons to pop round, stay on the phone for ages, that sort of thing. I wonder if there's anything in particular she likes getting from those interactions with you guys, and whether you could feed that a bit? Like my mother was always into status, so photos of the kids doing posh things were guaranteed to go down well. IDK.

flump I felt just like you when I went NC although the NPD realisation came a few weeks after the NC. I was just exhausted and disgusted with it all at once. I couldn't take it any more, and I swore that was it. And then about 2 weeks later I saw Disney's Tangled, and then googled "my mum is like Mother Gothel" and suddenly I knew what she had. I am really happy that we are probably the last people who won't be aware of what NPD is - thanks to Donald Trump getting elected, surely nobody with an NPD parent can be unaware now?

Hi Flump I thought you handled it really well, I would have said at the time but it felt a bit wrong but I felt pleased for you that it had happened. I hope it's not wrong to say that now. I think she took you by surprise though so what you said was a reaction to the moment and you were being true to you and that's brilliant. I'm hoping that I can be true to me too if/when the time comes but for me that's going to involve resisting planning anything because in planning the temptation would be to try to bring up things she's done in the past rather than address how she's behaving at the actual time. I hope that makes sense. I suppose when she blows I don't want her to know the true extent of the hurt she's caused, she's fed enough off me as it is, I'm working on healing myself so if I revealed my inner pain and she didn't comfort me (and she won't because it's all about her) then I'll set myself back.

I've got bad memories and issues about not being comforted when I'm upset and hurting though, so I suppose my number one need is to protect myself by not giving her/ them to chance to do that to me, not even one more time.

Thanks treacle that means a lot coming from someone who's in such a similar situation

I am glad I said (or shouted ) the things I did. And I'm really glad that I got angry, rather than got upset. I did get upset afterwards, obviously, but she doesn't know that.

What you said is not wrong at all, you've given me a real boost on a bit of a wobbly day (I've been a bit tearful again...).

Hi everyone. Have been reading everything and sending lots of and peace to you all.

I am feeling really, really angry at the moment. I don't fully know why as things are OK with my family at the moment.

Mother has texted a little bit, initiated by her. First time in many months and I feel wary. I don't want to out myself but what she said pissed me off even though on the face of it it was absolutely fine which makes me feel like I am just looking for things to be offended at and being ungrateful.

Sibling has decided they want to visit at very short notice. Again don't want to out myself but it has been made pretty clear that I am an afterthought and they aren't that bothered about seeing me.

Other sibling is basically ignoring/ avoiding me and I don't know why.

Next family thing is in a couple of weeks so feeling a bit guarded about that too.

Oh. I guess things actually aren't that OK with them. I suppose what I mean is that nothing major has happened, nothing nasty has been said, I just am noticing all the tiny things and it's making me so angry but then I feel like I am looking into it too much and being unreasonable.

I don't know what I can do to get some control back as I feel it is all on their terms. If I take a step back I feel like I am just being grouchy and horrible, and I'm not sure they even notice or care.

[Flowers] for you too xx

Thank you

You're bound to feel wobbly, you've had an awful emotional experience.

Have you got some nice things in place, stuff that's good for the soul?

My friend told about something she'd read on a Mindful site. You make what's called a grab jar, it basically a large jar big enough to fit your hand in. Then you write treat and task type things on coloured or pretty paper, fold them up so you can't see what you've written and then when you've got spare time or not feeling great you grab one and do it. The idea is to do it for five minutes but for longer if you're enjoying yourself. Some examples of what to write would be:

Polish your toes
Use a face mask
Clear under the bed
Draw a picture
Bake a cake
Take something to a food bank
Weed the garden
Clean all the door handles
Polish a mirror
Take a fun photo
And so on...

I was a bit at first but the more I thought about it the more I can the good it can do.

Hi chest. You are not looking into it too much and being unreasonable. If you allow yourself to think that, you are just being the person your mum wants you to believe you are (I learnt that on here somewhere ).

You are doing what many of us are - as we are becoming more aware of what is really going on, we are prepared to accept less and less of it. So we are getting pissed off with every little injustice - just as we should do, because we deserve better!

I have to say your comment about not outing yourself has made me think 'whoops' because I've been so detailed about things. But then part of me thinks 'oh fuck it, it's all true'.

X-posted treacle - I want a grab jar now, I love that idea...

Funnily enough I've repainted my nails about four times this week - and I've bought myself a new jacket - does that count?

Flowers didn't work, I needed an extra bunch for drawers so..

I'm just about to set off to meet my mum yikes, but I'm gonna get a grab jar whilst I'm out. Xx

Good luck! Remember, channel the Penguins of Madagascar - just smile and nod....

Thanks treacle! Hope it goes well for you today, I am hope you are fantastically dull!!

flump thank you, you are absolutely right. It just feels so wrong (unfamiliar is a better word I suppose) to feel outraged at anything they do. And to not desperately take anything from them that gets thrown my way. I feel really shut out and uninteresting to them and although that makes it easier to keep contact not too frequent, it really hurts.

Re outing - I think its pretty unlikely. This is a pretty specific place to be on the internet! I am just extra careful for other reasons