Decision made

[adorably2014]

I posted here in June. I can't seem to be able to link to my old thread. After a summer of ups and downs I have decided I don't want to be married to my husband anymore. He has no idea and now the children are at school again I have more time to plan.

My fear is that because what is happening is always in private, how can I possibly document all this and be believed in the divorce courts? For example this summer he had bought me two really expensive pieces of jewellery which he presented to me in front of the children as a kind of I love you gift, only for 5 days later to do the stuff that has made me decide to leave. So he will easily seem like the wronged man with a gold digger wife. I am also concerned what to say to the children when a split is initiated. I don't want them to know exactly as it would be too awful for them but then again is it going to be possible to protect from everything? I also worry that if I talk about what has been going on then my H could potentially be in trouble which I don't want, selfishly I just don't want to have to live with it anymore.

For the moment I am focusing on my course and work experience where I asked if there was possible paid employment. My boss said they were very busy and would probably have two projects I could help with in October and be paid for. I hope it materialises. In the meantime I am putting as much money as possible into my own account. My H has not got access to it but knows the account details. Is it OK do you think or should I set sth he knows nothing about. For choosing a solicitor is it best to take a WA solicitor or one of my own? I reckon my H will get someone really good and expensive so I need to make sure I have someone very very good.

I tried to find a counsellor before the school holidays but it wasn't that easy. I also found that talking about all the stuff in a way made me freeze and reflect so much that I couldn't act if that makes sense. I think when things are over I will then hopefully find the space to talk ... So for now I am trying to get on with practical stuff like following advice on getting paperwork together before contacting solicitors. My H has loads of paperwork. I know because I sometimes do his filing. There are share certificates, pension stuff etc... Do I need to copy everything? If so,does it need to be recent or can I take copies now even if I don't start anything in 6 months' time.

Sorry I sound like such a cold calculating b here. I am mostly terrified of putting the children through such an upheaval but then I keep reminding myself our eldest saw something was wrong with me during the holiday and didn't really believe the explanation that 'mummy is tired'.

Anyway apart from my few questions not sure entirely why I am posting, for support I guess and to update on previous thread after this long gap.

No, don't ring anyone. Let him email you. He violated the order, didn't he? Please jot it down on a calendar or diary with a few notes as to the conversation. This is just another proof that he considers only himself. Remember that he's 'desperate' to get you back not from unselfish love and sincere remorse, but because he's lost his sexual victim and his fear of loss of prestige and money. If he was truly remorseful and truly loved you, it would be all about YOU and what you need, including his admission of true guilt for his sexual behaviour and a willingness to leave you alone. Remember that, now, let it go.

Next time the minute you hear his voice just say 'you aren't supposed to call me' and hang up the phone. I know you've said you've not done that before, but you didn't think at first that you'd have enough courage to divorce him and now you know that you do! Hanging up will be easy after the first time. Also, his mother has proved (if you doubted it) that she is HIS ally, not yours. I don't believe for one second that she didn't know. If she sounded confused it's probably because he bullied her to make the call so he could get on the phone to you.

Remember that now you have power, too. The power to refuse to be engaged. The power to maintain your 'self' and not be bullied. The power to say 'no' and 'don't call me'. It may not seem like the amount of power you think he has, but it's power none the less. Power that you didn't have before. And power grows with usage. Use it.

A happy and peaceful Christmas to you and your darling girls. If they do go to their father's, use that time to love and pamper yourself. Enjoy the peace of your home.

I wish you a merry Christmas
I wish you a merry Christmas
I wish you a merry Christmas
And a bloody amazing and wonderful new life!

Dear Adorably
I think I predicted up-thread that xh will try every trick in the book to regain his control over you. From what you've described he is a charmer, a smooth talker and a manipulator and nobody except you has really seen his other side. And from what you've said about yourself, you're quite a private person and not comfortable with opening up about how bad it's actually been in your marriage.

So, XH will use this against you. He will tell people you're having a breakdown or that you are 'not well enough' to look after the dcs. He will act oh so reasonably and so confused and hurt. He'll use family and friends to get at you (and they'll think they're helping). He just doesn't understand why you're doing this when you were both so happy and then he'll get angry and belittle you. He tell you how you wont manage without him. You'll be financially crippled. Nobody else will ever love you now you've got dcs etc etc boring etc.

But, Adorably, you can do this, you are doing this and while dh throws his toys out of the pram you will be getting stronger and braver all the time. Soon he wont even recognise you, you are going to change so much.

Just brace yourself for the onslaught that he will be preparing for you. The best way to protect yourself is to tell people as much as you comfortably can. E.g. MIL wont have the faintest clue how her beloved ds has behaved to you. He's not going to tell her, is he? So if she or any other family member rings again tell them something along the lines of:
Look MIL. I know you cant understand why I've had to do this and I don't want to tell you, but let me just say that I would not be taking this action lightly. I have thought extremely long and hard about this and believe me, I had no alternative. xh's behaviour was abusive. Please ensure he doesn't contact me in any way because he risks going to prison if he breaks the order.

Likewise, with your own parents just keep repeating. He was abusive. I had no choice. You can choose to support me or leave me alone but I will not be changing my mind.

Good luck Adorably and enjoy a safe and peaceful Christmas with your over-excited dcs.

Thinking of you adorably. How are you? I hope you've had a peaceful few days over Christmas. Take care xx

Xmas Day was ok. Thanks for the wishes. Odd and quiet but OK. Dc1 also talked to me a bit more which I felt quite relieved about really. But the last 2 days were very hard. A time was eventually arranged and the children went to H's family overnight. I didn't know what to do with myself after handover. I had made a little list of things to do to try and give me some focus as I thought it would be hard but it wasn't any help. I just drove around then went walking, hoping it would help. Felt completely heart broken, like one half of me had been taken away.

The house (especially when the kids weren't around) is a constant reminder of him which isn't helping. I feel I can't complain as I started this and got what I asked for and I do feel better because I know the holiday would have involved more coercion. But there are lots of things I can't look at without getting negative feelings of different kinds. I'm sleeping in the spare room as I can't go in what was our bedroom now without getting (bad) stuff coming flooding back. I had a really panicky evening yesterday and I had to go out for a walk in the end. I'd had a few of these panics on the train in the morning in the last couple of months like feeling faint with heart pounding thinking I am going to die but at the same time a sudden urge to get out of the carriage (never actually doing it), but never at home.

H is continuing to put pressure too. He emailed saying his sister would be meeting me at x place to 'return' the children today. In fact he was driving the car with his sister and the children in it. Thankfully he didn't get out but he sat there watching as his sister talked to me. She was apologetic he was here but said he had insisted on coming. I felt really shaky throughout the whole thing, which didn't last long but felt like ages. I managed to keep it together. Because of H suggesting I've had a breakdown I made a super effort both handovers to smile and look normal (if that's ever possible?!) so SIL would wonder what on earth he was talking about, but underneath I was shaking really badly inside.

At the bottom of the bag of presents the kids brought back there were presents for me from my mother in law, sister in law AND H. I don't mind mil and sil's but wonder what I should do with H's. Don't want to open them. They look his usual expensive ones. Return them unopened? Should it be mentioned to solicitor? The list is growing. I feel a bit ridiculous involving someone every time. Also SIL has asked to meet up with me in the new year. I tried to be very vague. Maybe I need to be blunter? I like her very much and the cousins have always played together lots but I can't see how sustainable this is going to be. Maybe one day I will get the hang of all this...

Acrossthepond After lots of agonising I went a bit mad on the emails. I sent one to the PO so there would be a record , one to his sister and one to my parents.
I had a strong feeling his mum didn't know. She seemed to think I was ill or something similar. So I thought maybe his sister didn't know either. I don't really know what he's been up to. What made me quite cross was that he wanted to speak to me but then didn't even speak to the children who of course realised it was him and then got upset. Anyway I emailed his sis keeping it as factual, polite and neutral as possible that because of recent events I was granted orders and had asked for divorce. A few hours later I got a text from her with apologies she didn't know and I got a time then. So it kind of worked this time, but it's not good because it's not for her to do this. I don't think I should email her again, really.

Haffdonga you're right H is probably using all sorts of excuses but I don't know if telling people exactly what happened would help. The one lesson I learnt from dealing with people like my mother in the past was that the more I said the more ammunition I was giving her to beat me with. I guess I am quite shy but then I don't think all the sex stuff is something I'd want to be sharing with my mother in law or people like this to be honest. I think saying more could easily be used against me too. If someone doesn't want to believe something they will just find any reason to not believe it, no?

I sent an email to my parents and said if they start a conversation in front of the children I will have no option but to leave, and I will do just that. Feels like I am blackmailing them but no point explaining things to my mother, she was disgusting really and my father worse than useless saying it was the shock that made my mother say these things. She blamed me entirely for the divorce when I told her and thinks I am foolish to have instigated it. When I mentioned violence she said I must have driven H to it. I am selfish and stubborn as far as she is concerned and I won't go into details with her. If I did, she would still turn round and tell me it was my fault. She also hates the fact that she will have to tell her friends that her daughter is divorced, she thinks it's shameful. I remember the fuss that was made when her cousin divorced. Really backward views. Her and my aunt barely talk these days.

I'm sure your SIL will be fine if you say you'd love to see her but can't sort out details at the moment because things are a bit up in the air.

Your mother sounds absolutely horrendous but at least she is consistent and you know to ignore everything she says. Well done on getting this far, the time of year makes it even harder. As to the presents- if you don't want them take them to the charity shop perhaps? I think presents from him is breaking a non molestation order. He is testing the waters with the call, being there unexpectedly at drop off etc so probably come down harshly and make it clear what no contact means.

Look after yourself brave lady xx.

you may not feel it, but you are doing so well.
Christmas brings up so many things, so many obligations that people feel compelled to do, which makes anything like this 100 x worse, but you have more or less got through the worst of it.
And you have set in writing where your boundaries lie in regard discussing this with your parents - you already know that any information will be used and you dont want to give her the ammo, so it will be no surprise if you turn tail and walk if she starts, and there will be no discussion needed, which really helps you.
Accept MIL/SIL gifts if you like, but I would be tempted to return his.
And I also agree with making sure the legal team know he is trying contact, show him you are serious and not to be messed with.

NettleTea - I do feel bad not being there with his family. And not being there with the children. His Sil said dc2 had not been easy and I am not entirely surprised as normally it's me or a nanny who does things like bedtime so I feel very bad I wasn't there for them.

For the presents I will leave unopened and check when the solicitor is back. I thought about giving them but then H might think they have accepted maybe.

I agree with talking to the solicitor about the gifts. Don't open them. Just put them somewhere out of sight. I wouldn't give them away. At the very least they are evidence that he is violating the non-mol order.

Seriously, I'd start an informal diary & write down every time he forces you to engage, even something like just seeing him in the car at drop off (which would have creeped me out, frankly). That's forcing is presence on you. If his attempts continue in these ways (not direct contact, but 'hovering' and 'making his presence known' iyswim) write them down. Get clarification from your solicitor as to what constitutes harassment. Any attempt at direct contact (phone, text, etc) should be referred to the police. If your solicitor says these other things are also violating the order, report them, too. Your H has no fear of you. But I'm sure he DOES fear the police and the damage to his reputation should he be arrested for stalking!

If he uses family members to communicate with you, let them know in no uncertain terms that if it continues you will cut off communications with them. If you don't feel you're ready for a relationship with SiL, tell her so. But be aware, again, that she is HIS sister. She has a vested interest in this situation, and that interest is her brother. Do NOT tell her anything you wouldn't want him to know. It's obvious from the car incident that he will use her as a bridge to you, and she will let him do so (while saying 'he insisted'). I'm sure he manipulates the women in his family just as he manipulated you. He will use her to press his advantage.

I'm glad you sent the emails. I can understand you not wanting to reveal the details of his abuse, but it's good that you said 'there's more to the story than you've been told'. Just stick to your guns. Share only that which you feel comfortable sharing. Leave if people won't honour your boundaries.

As far as SiL saying DC2 had a rough time, your H was perfectly capable of dealing with his children himself. Considering all, he SHOULD have been very hands on. But again, he puts himself first and lets his SiL sort it. Probably because he KNEW it would get back to you and you'd feel guilty. You don't need to!

The children will adjust. You know they will. Not only are you doing this for yourself, but they will learn a valuable lesson in not accepting being treated badly by someone who is supposed to treat them right. Right now they're too young, but eventually they will understand.

Addendum- His behaviour shows that he still thinks he's entitled to treat you anyway he sees fit. AND that he feels he's above the law!

Just another voice of support here Adorably. Keep strong you have the force of mumsnet behind you

I would return the presents unopened, to his work if you don't know where he's staying.

I'm really sorry about your mum she sounds quite ghastly. I think you'll need to get tough with stonewalling - just keep repeating that you're not prepared to discuss anything to do with the marriage with her, ad nauseam.

My impression of you is that you are a kind person and perhaps a bit of a people-pleaser, and you want your husband to understand your pov and perhaps ideally your mum too. They are both, in different ways, completely beyond the bounds of reasonable behaviour and you can only leave them to it.

Hi adorably, just wanted to wish you a very, very Happy New Year. May 2015 bring you all the happiness and peace you deserve. I have been travelling with only very occasional internet access but will try and check your thread every now and then. Take care xx

A bit late but happy new year!

Survived the stay at parents without getting drawn in a big argument. Will need to rethink contact with them though as my mother comes out with just the most hurtful stuff and completely thinks H is hard done by. Total guilt trip for me, as if I don't feel bad enough... No support will be found there.

So, glad to be back really, even if there is more shit to deal with already and no solicitors on hand this week.

One of the things is that H emailed to change contact next weekend to daytime one day instead of overnight and also wants to collect more things he 'didn't have time to remove' (yes, I know, he must think I am very stupid...). Also got 2 (probably very) drunken voicemails left on NY eve.

Acrossthepond thanks for your advice. I did a list of contact attempts. I'd been told to keep a log, but hadn't really started as I didn't think he would make contact that much.

Twinklestein. Yes too much of a people pleaser. Sometimes I realise as I'm doing something, sometimes after and I think 'why on earth did I do/say this?' And fully realise people don't respect me more for it sadly. Trying to stop doing it but not that easy as I don't even always realise at the time. Was trained very early to toe the line, not that it helps to blame my parents now.

As for being kind, I don't know. Think too trusting or head in the clouds really and not very worldly wise in many ways. I don't really understand why people do manipulation, I don't understand what they gain from it. I give people the benefit of the doubt, make excuses for them until it's impossible to ignore that actually they are being nasty and doing things on purpose for their own benefit, and it becomes impossible to ignore because I really suffer. It's what happened with H really.

Oh and Awake hope you are enjoying the travelling. Sounds very nice. May I ask where?

here is a good book to read
www.amazon.co.uk/Toxic-Parents-Susan-Forward-ebook/dp/B003Q6D5PM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420330150&sr=8-1&keywords=toxic+parents
please do list all the contact and keep all messages/voicemails
I think you are amazing, staying so strong, despite attacks and guilt pity parties from every side, and you have come so far since this summer.
hope this year is the year you find everything you need for yourself xxx

Hi adorably, good to hear from you. Limiting contact with your parents seems like a good idea given their rather unhelpful reaction. Yes, log contact attempts by your H and discuss with solicitor once she is on hand again.

Thanks for asking, I've been travelling in northern Norway, along the coast up into the Arctic circle. Visited the North Cape yesterday and returning to the UK tomorrow. We were lucky enough to see the Aurora several times (see picture). Take care adorably, I hope you are settling into 2015 and your new life xx

Hello Adorably, and although we know it's going to be a bit bumpy, I wish you all the best for 2015, you and the DC really deserve a peaceful and happy life.

I'm sorry you didn't get the support you need from your parents, and if you need to limit contact with them to get through the next few months then do just that. Many years ago in counselling I was advised to take support from wherever I could get it, and if that resulted in a sort of patch-work from unexpected places that was fine - whatever you need to get you through.

Like you I have spent most of my life trying to look after and please other people, often completely without realising that I have needs myself...it has taken me a few years to get out of that habit, and I'm sure you will too, it'll just take a bit of practice. You also have a good solicitor to lean on, so use her as the professional dragon she clearly is and let her protect you whenever she can.

For everything else, one step at a time...you are doing just great

Nettletea thanks for the link. Have had a look. It looks very good. I have felt unable/too guilty to cut contact completely, complicated by the fact that other family members that I get on well with live very near, and then me being keen to do the bilingual thing with the children. It's essentially a non-relationship though and since I've left home we talk about little more than safe subjects. Things seemed better for a short while after I had dc1. It changed when the kids started growing and my mother started openly commenting on parenting issues, undermining me in front of the DCs. I distanced myself then but again too guilty to cut contact completely. I'm not even expecting support from them, that was the wrong word really, but at least some kind of common decency.

Thank goodness I get on with my aunt and cousin otherwise I'd think there's sth wrong with me. And the elderly neighbours here were so lovely over the Christmas period as well after I told them.

H (or soon to be xh, can't get my head round this) is hovering for sure. PO said he was 'a pain' this afternoon as I've rung them to see if someone can be there so he can collect what he wants (I didn't know what else to do). But incredibly despite threats he's paid the allowance into my account. I didn't think he would. Maybe he forgot or this is part of looking good? I felt really guilty when I saw that. But I'm sure the lull due to the holidays, solicitors being away and the hearing for the orders due soon will be over soon enough. It feels very weird. Think the fact that he works away so much so I basically do pretty much all the day to day house and child stuff by myself and didn't see him everyday anyway has helped me lots.

I am just so grateful the orders were granted really - the first NY eve message he left reminded me of that actually. Wonder what the solicitor will make of it. Sometimes I think he has gone mad. Anyway ...

Awake oh that's great. Looks like a fantastic holiday. Been to Iceland and Finland but never Norway.

Actually take that back. Maybe no lull...
Just as I've sorted something out so he can safely come to the house, new email. He "urgently requires" some paperwork by Monday, with the word "imperative" in bold thrown in for good measure. He wants to look through his filing cabinet as well now. Oh dear ... Not sure whether to laugh hysterically or cry now.

It was inevitable that he would try it. Talk to your solicitor.

You can ask a third party to be present, you may even ask the police if necessary, they can 'attend' to prevent a 'breach of the peace'.

He has the resources to hire a courier for any paperwork and probably has an assistant who can come and look for it. He also has the resources to hire a removal or delivery company to pick up the entire bloody file cabinet and deliver it to him. But first, if I were you, I'd take a look myself to be sure there isn't anything that is relevant to you or your potential settlement. Don't concern yourself with 'snooping'. You are protecting yourself. Although I have a feeling if you told him you either wouldn't be there or that an officer would be with you when he came to collect whatever it is, he would suddenly find that it wasn't so 'urgent' after all!

Remember, I posted a while back that he would do this, purposely leave things there that he would 'urgently need' in the future. He's just trying to get back in the door and harass and intimidate you. He thinks that all he needs to do is get you alone face to face. After all, that's what he's always done in the past to bend you to his will. Hell, he probably thinks that he only has to 'make love to assault you' to 'prove his love'. God, it makes me ill just to type that, but such is his mindset!!! You must, must protect yourself.

Just because he says it's 'urgent' and 'imperative' doesn't mean you have to comply. You now need to consider YOURSELF first. He'll have to get used to that.

Write this all down in your log. Is he violating orders in contacting you and insisting on pushing himself into your life in this way?

Also, I think you need (or your solicitor needs) to draft a letter telling him that he must get ALL his personal belongings and papers (excluding household furnishings, artwork, things that may be part of the marriage settlement, etc) out of the house on such and such a date. Then arrange for someone (police?) to be there and stick to you like glue since you'd need to monitor that he doesn't walk off with anymore joint possessions.

Ha! my attempt to 'cross out' make love to didn't work did it?

AcrossthePond55 gives good advice about the filing cabinet. If you can access it and have time I'd suggest you go through it to see if there's anything of interest.

Keep up the good work even though it's difficult. Log everything and report all attempts at contact.

Adorably whenever he contacts you about something he 'needs' or 'wants', whether it's papers, possessions, or access with the children you need to stop and think to yourself 'Does this suit ME? Am I comfortable with this?' then proceed from there.

My dear, you are so used to tippy-toeing around him and putting his needs first that I think (understandably) that your immediate reaction to his requests is to say yes to facilitate him or placate him so he leaves you alone and doesn't hassle or bully you. Again, you've been operating under 'him first to save myself from him' for a long time. You need to think 'me first to save myself from him'! You are no longer living in the same house. You can safely say 'no' without fear.

I hear what you're saying completely. But the return hearing is soon and I don't want it to be argued that I am unreasonable and preventing him accessing his belongings. I can see he's pushing boundaries here, just worried how to handle it.

Solicitor is off until Monday. I already talked to the PO yesterday and this morning. She said they're very stretched so worked out to put all his clothes in bags to give at handover in neutral place so he has everything but is not getting a foot in the door.

But then he's now moved the goalpost to paperwork. He'd already changed his mind about the children. And really also going back on his offer that his family would do the handover, I think he intends to do it this time, which I am not happy about (but it's not a condition so I don't think I can insist on it). So yes he is messing me about and I'm spending headspace and time worrying and doing a lot of running. I'm also pissed off because the implication of his new email is that he would do his rooting around in his drawers while I watch the DCs on what is supposedly his contact time. When I first read the email I really thought wtf, will he expect me to provide Sunday lunch too?! It really sounds like he's just casually coming round.

I think maybe because he got orders/papers just before the hols and everyone's been away and it's been so quiet maybe he thinks I'm not telling anyone so just carries on.

You're right he could send someone though I doubt he'd do that; he could also collect the cabinet. Maybe I need to ask him what he wants and courier it, if he tells me what it is. I used to file some of his stuff but he may not want me to though as I suspect he needs stuff for his solicitor. I use the cabinet as well, parts of it has his stuff, part of it is really joint too so I am reluctant to tell him to collect the whole thing in case I ever need anything in it. In fact all the house stuff is in there still. I never had a chance to sort it out.

It's all a bit of a mess really. I absolutely don't want to be any way near him by myself. That was the whole point of going through all this in the first place. And Across please don't talk about love, I can't stand it. At least with his new year monologue he has now stupidly put on record the real him, I must say. So maybe that would be enough to get any judge to continue the orders even if he doesn't get his paperwork by Monday.

Re-reading my 3rd paragraph - yes can see it's all about him, you're right Across maybe I should pretend I never saw that email and wait until Monday. Oh what a faff!