Decision made

[adorably2014]

I posted here in June. I can't seem to be able to link to my old thread. After a summer of ups and downs I have decided I don't want to be married to my husband anymore. He has no idea and now the children are at school again I have more time to plan.

My fear is that because what is happening is always in private, how can I possibly document all this and be believed in the divorce courts? For example this summer he had bought me two really expensive pieces of jewellery which he presented to me in front of the children as a kind of I love you gift, only for 5 days later to do the stuff that has made me decide to leave. So he will easily seem like the wronged man with a gold digger wife. I am also concerned what to say to the children when a split is initiated. I don't want them to know exactly as it would be too awful for them but then again is it going to be possible to protect from everything? I also worry that if I talk about what has been going on then my H could potentially be in trouble which I don't want, selfishly I just don't want to have to live with it anymore.

For the moment I am focusing on my course and work experience where I asked if there was possible paid employment. My boss said they were very busy and would probably have two projects I could help with in October and be paid for. I hope it materialises. In the meantime I am putting as much money as possible into my own account. My H has not got access to it but knows the account details. Is it OK do you think or should I set sth he knows nothing about. For choosing a solicitor is it best to take a WA solicitor or one of my own? I reckon my H will get someone really good and expensive so I need to make sure I have someone very very good.

I tried to find a counsellor before the school holidays but it wasn't that easy. I also found that talking about all the stuff in a way made me freeze and reflect so much that I couldn't act if that makes sense. I think when things are over I will then hopefully find the space to talk ... So for now I am trying to get on with practical stuff like following advice on getting paperwork together before contacting solicitors. My H has loads of paperwork. I know because I sometimes do his filing. There are share certificates, pension stuff etc... Do I need to copy everything? If so,does it need to be recent or can I take copies now even if I don't start anything in 6 months' time.

Sorry I sound like such a cold calculating b here. I am mostly terrified of putting the children through such an upheaval but then I keep reminding myself our eldest saw something was wrong with me during the holiday and didn't really believe the explanation that 'mummy is tired'.

Anyway apart from my few questions not sure entirely why I am posting, for support I guess and to update on previous thread after this long gap.

I suppose you could go no contact with your mother, but if you don't feel ready for that, then the best thing you can do is try to change your reaction to her. Remind yourself that the things she says are all about HER, not about you. It's hard to get to a place where we don't want or need our parent's approval or sympathy, but I think sometimes we just have to realize that nothing we do will be good enough. Even if you were to magically transform yourself into 'her perfect daughter', it still wouldn't be what she wants. She wants someone to pick on, someone she can put down to make herself feel better. Because that's what it's all about; bringing herself up by bringing you down. And who better than a person who has been raised and conditioned to not 'talk back'. Even in good mother/daughter relationships it's hard to tell one's mother to 'back off' or take their criticism with a grain of salt.

I'm not defending her, but remember that she really doesn't know the entire truth about your marriage. All she sees is a daughter who has left the 'lap of luxury' because she wouldn't 'put up with a man's ways'. I can name a half dozen of my friend's mothers who, sadly to say, would tell their daughters to put up with infidelity or emotional abuse for the sake of holding on to a 'rich man' and the lifestyle that goes with it. Even more sad, I can think of a few friends who feel that way, themselves! Again, I'm not excusing her or saying that's an acceptable way to feel, it's emphatically NOT. Nor am I telling you to confide in her, especially since she'd probably be one of those who think 'it's worth it for the money'. It's just another reason why it's best to distance yourself and keep her from 'infecting' your children with her ideals.

As far as the children, she should not be allowed to speak negatively about you to them. That, I think, is something you should nip in the bud. At this point, it's too late to say anything about her recent comments on your work, but if it happens again in any way, I'd terminate the Skype or phone call right away, then send an immediate email telling her that she is not to make negative comments of any kind about you or your work, or you will stop further contact. And that you will not enter into any discussion or debate on the issue. Unfortunately, the children are already hearing negative things from their father, they don't need another important person in their lives putting you down. You may not have control over what he says, but you can control what they hear from your mother.

I'm not surprised at the company your STBX keeps. Men like him sink to their own level. He needs to have friends around him who will validate his behaviour. He certainly isn't going to 'pal around' with men who tell him what a bastard he is and that he's basically nothing more than a male slut.

I truly believe that things will calm down and his demanding to see the children so much will die off, thus he won't have quite so much influence on them. Right now it's all about hurting and trying to control you and he knows the children are the direct route. As time passes they will become too much a burden on his lifestyle and he will also see that you won't be controlled or bullied. Once he realizes his 'weapon' has been blunted, he'll stop trying to wield it quite so much. It may not be until everything is finalized, but I'm confident it will happen. Plus the children know you and know 'who you truly are'. Their dad's lies may trouble them, but they won't permanently influence them. You will be the greatest influence on their lives.

Thank you so much Across.
You're right, I've not told my parents the real reasons. I did say he'd been violent though. Only my father asked what he did. I said he'd hit me twice which isn't strictly true but closest I could think of without really saying. They know also about the orders and there's definitely the equivalent of the non-mol in my country, so they should realise that it was serious. My mother downplayed things though and said I must have driven him to it. I imagine if she knew she would make it all my fault too as in he needed to do that because you were a bad wife. .

Regarding the children. I shouldn't let it happen. I didn't stop the Skype but I did talk to the children about it after. One of them turned towards me as she said it. I've told them their grandmother was in a bad mood with me because we were not visiting them this year, and that she shouldn't be speaking to me like this. I did phone my mother too to tell her to stop because there's been more than this but she denied ever saying anything at all. She said I was putting words in her mouth. The trouble is each time I threaten to stop contact but I never do.

I agree, she probably would find a way to twist things and, if she were my mother, I'd rather have her think I was being 'foolish' over some 'minor' issues than to have her continually making comments about how 'wrong' I was to leave a man over what she'd probably call 'trivial bedroom behaviour' or 'the price a woman pays'. I think she has two motives; firstly, it reinforces that she is in the 'superior position' because you are unhappy and she 'is not' (although I think she is unhappy down to her soul) and secondly, I'd bet she gets a little 'prestige' amongst her friends at having a daughter who 'married well'. No parent likes to tell their friends that a child is getting divorced, even if the reason is justified. Add in the fact that she thinks (wrongly) that you are being 'foolish' and I'll bet she's just livid at having to see her friends give her pitying looks because her daughter is 'throwing it all away'. She's disgusting and, honestly, if she were in my social circle, she'd get short shrift from me! It's like she's living in the 1950s!

If the badmouthing happens again, I'd advise telling your children the 'partial' truth, tailoring it to their ages. That Grandmother has 'wrong ideas' about women and what a woman can do. That a woman is free to work if she wants to and that Grandmother is wrong and has terribly old-fashioned ideas. My DH's late grandfather used unacceptable language to describe certain races, and occasionally would use them in front of our sons. We pretty much told our boys the same thing. That Granddad used 'bad words' and that it was wrong. That he was old and sometimes didn't know any better. But that WE knew better and would never use those words because they were hurtful. They would even correct him, which was fine with us!

Don't worry, you didn't 'let it happen'. The words were out of her mouth before you had a chance to stop her. But remember, you have the power in this situation, not her. The power to tell her that she won't be speaking to her grandchildren. As far as 'putting words in her mouth', I'd tell her that you heard what you heard, whether she 'remembers' saying it or not. And that if she doesn't remember saying it, perhaps that's an even better reason for her not to speak to your children!

Thank you again, Across. You're very kind.
I didn't argue back or say anything much after she denied saying anything at all. I just can't take more arguments, justifications or aggressivity at the moment. I think she can sense that and just keeps pushing.

Thanks again.

Hope all is going well and that you've managed to have your sun-filled getaway.

Thanks for asking Across. No sun-filled break yet. Things are just awful right now. I can't bear to report back here on everything. He's carried out the threats he'd made at the beginning about the children and me not being a fit parent. It's completely mad and kafkaesque.
Children are due to go to him v soon which fills me with dread. Despite painting me as a demented parent he's no real patience or time for them. They've said he shouts at them when they don't do what he asks but, I've checked countless times, I have to let them go or I would make things worse at this stage. It hurts.
I hope he doesn't try to use me going away against me if the kids tell him.

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear this! Remember that he can say whatever he wants, but that doesn't mean that a judge will believe him. Listen to your solicitors and do what they say. Perhaps see your counselor to 'blow off some steam'. His words are just that, words. You know that you are a good parent and that you haven't done anything to harm your children. He can't say the same and the truth WILL out!

There's nothing wrong with going away. It's not like you're leaving them alone in the house! If going away and leaving the children with the other parent makes someone a 'bad parent', then I'd say he's waaay ahead of you on that score! How many times has he gone away when the children are with you?

Try to keep calm. Don't react to him out of fear or anger. That's what he wants. No, you can't stop the children from going. It's hard, I know, but I think he probably will have help with them. Either a nanny or his mother. That will help keep a 'lid' on his behaviour.

No wise words But thinking of you adorably. X

Sweetheart, you don't get granted a non-mol for no reason, and even then he breached the bloody thing, which (as horribly distressing as it was for you) all reinforces YOUR truths. To outsiders, not just you.

Your children will be ok, you will be ok.

I've thought of you often, and hope you get your break, sounds like you need it. You are not mad, you are not unkind to your children, he will not defeat you with this.

and a big virtual hug for you.

Thank you for being here. Yes I need hugs ... They're off later today ...
Across I don't respond directly to anything, don't worry. I do feel fearful of the damage being done though. V fearful. His family have closed ranks lately, I think he must have told them I reported what he did and basically I received angry correspondence from his sister telling about the distress caused etc and never to contact them again and communicate through her mother's solicitors. Otherwise it would be taken as harassment. Really sudden and over the top.
On top of that I was informed by social services that 2 separate allegations of neglect of the children were made and he's made more court applications, if it's at all possible, with a complete rewrite of the marriage that is just shocking. There's more, but I won't go on. I think he wants to get shot of me now as he's moaned about how long it's taking to settle - well yes if only he'd submitted his form E when required!

I just feel heartbroken the kids are going to stay with people who obviously think I'm the lowest of the low, who can do this, who can lie, putting me and the children through unnecessary things. I guess I never thought they would do this. And yes, his shouting, which is a fairly new development as far as I know and worries me too. He seems more and more angry and impatient. Even my solicitor remarked he'd reached a new level of anger ...

I hope the kids come back ok and don't get brainwashed.

Adorably I do not want to intrude on your thread in any way.
But I have read your threads and want to say I am really sorry you are going though this nightmare.

You cant see this now but one day you will come out the other end a lot wiser.

Your life has a purpose so do not give up.

One day soon your life will have a reward that even you didn't see coming.
Hugs and well wishes to you.

Well, I'm no social worker, but if they are informing you that an allegation has been made, I'm guessing those allegations will be easy to refute. Many (adorable!) DC of my acquaintance frequently resemble grubby street urchins, but not a single right thinking soul in the universe would think they are neglected, far from it (and not suggesting that your DC look the same, but ice cream....grass stains....).

As for your SIL, you were wary of contact with his family all along, so you've been proven right, and I'd like to see her go along to the police with her allegations of 'harassment'. See how much evidence (evidence which will stand up to police scrutiny that is) they can rustle up. Precislely none, I'm guessing.

And sweetheart, I'm going to try and word this carefully for sensible reasons, but if I hit you, your nose is bleeding and you go to the doctors, I can re-write what I like and tell people whatever makes me look better, but all the cold hard evidence points otherwise.

Your children will - sadly - learn the difference between a shouty angry father, and a steadfast, constant, reliable mother. They will even learn the difference between an expensively gifting father with no real time for them, and a mother who perhaps doesn't shower them with gifts but has emotional and psychological supportive input into their lives, if he goes that way.

As Across said earlier, he has most likely descended to a similar level as others of his ilk without you there to keep him up as a moral lifebelt (absolutely not your fault or responsibility btw), and you (and your solicitor... And possibly his solicitor...and no doubt others) are seeing what he's really like. Not nice. Awful, in fact. But him revealing his true colours will help you along the line, not least when he's re-writing history.

Stay strong. Your babies will be ok, and home with you soon, though I dare say not soon enough for your liking. Will be thinking of you (and sending psychic hugs in your direction regularly).

Reporting 'incidents' to SS and filing court applications is, unfortunately, par for the course for someone like him. Trust me, social workers and judges are used to it and they do NOT like being treated like a club to beat someone with! I wasn't a SW, but I did get involved in similar situations during my career and, trust me, you get pretty savvy after a few years. I wouldn't worry (although I know easier said, etc), it'll all be cleared up with just a little bit of bother on your part, most of which should be handled by your solicitor.

As far as family, I'm not surprised. In 99.99% of situations the family usually comes down on the side of their relative, no matter what. SiL was never truly supportive of you, and now she's shown her true colours. You have no need to contact her and you really aren't losing a 'true friend'.

The children will be fine. They won't be brainwashed. Yes, they may hear criticism of you and/or the way you parent, but they know you. They feel safe with you. They know that you do not and would not hurt them. If anything, them criticizing you around them is more likely to make them resent the speaker and feel more defensive of you. As far as him being shouty, honestly, I'll bet he doesn't have them on his own but a few hours a day. I'm sure his mother or sister will be caring for them the majority of the time, or he'll get a nanny in.

It's just another river to cross on your journey. You're getting there, it's just taking time.

Thank you so much - hardest thing was leaving them yesterday. But it's done. They called me earlier from the new shiny mobile and sounded ok. I have to let go, I know I have, it's just the circumstances make it 10 times worse. I have planned something everyday because otherwise I will go totally insane. I have to look after myself. I was at the GP this morning, I've lost lots of weight it's not good. I have iron tablets because anaemia has returned as well. I had an ok day today. I went out with other people in the afternoon without getting a panic attack which I was really relieved about. Each time I think ok that's it, and I start looking forward, some more drama happens, takes its toll, and the cycle starts again.

The allegations and threats are totally crazy. I was warned to expect something like this and for tables to be turned against me in the early days but I think no one was expecting it to happen now. The thing is his mum was literally sitting in my kitchen chatting over a cup of tea less than a week before my solicitor and I got the correspondence from his sister. His mum had asked if she could come over with her other grandchildren. We seemed to have come to an understanding as even if she sometimes said things about the divorce being a shame it wasn't really said as a reproach toward me, but just regretting the situation, kind of neutral sounding, and I didn't really mind. The chitchat was just that. I think she quite liked it actually. She normally asked if she could come over. Not that much but I suppose in the last month I had seen her more. And I did contact her to tell her of a school event she might be interested to see the dcs in. But there was nothing like harassment. I was totally shocked and spent hours wondering what on earth I might have said that might have offended. I don't really understand his motive. Perhaps he thinks ultimately the children will live with him? Perhaps he thought his mum was a bit too friendly? Perhaps he told them I reported? It has implications on handovers, and mostly on the kids who will see less of her. I got them the mobile because of that too, out of worry. I think he's made a huge mistake because this is not something I will forgive, ever. His mum is likely to suffer quite a lot because of it. If there's a change of mind on their part, they can stuff it. If they want to 'play games' like this, I am completely out. Completely.

The children are known to SS anyway, and they reassured me. But it's there and you never know really, I feel if someone somewhere decides to believe them, who knows? It's really really unsettling to have things so fundamental questioned.

Notabear the children are a bit past the street urchin look age I think usually, though dc2 can sometimes have that sort of day. Last day of term there was no ice cream but 2 badly grazed knees, red cherry juice on the t-shirt, chocolatey mouth, grassy bum, dishevelled look. So much so that this elderly man at a bus stop said 'Slow down darling!' But he was smiling, and it was all quite funny and sweet as it had been a full day. Little did I know. H's version of neglect is not that. It's leaving them alone in the evenings, not meeting their emotional needs, not supervising dangerous activities ... All a lie, I should add.

Funny you mention the nannies Across because he's tried to itemise how much he had to spend on nannies throughout our marriage because of my inadequate and irresponsible parenting. When I think how pushy he was about going away for weekends leaving dc1 with one, it makes me sick. It's so so bonkers. There will probably be one on his holiday but someone else is going to hire her.

frankly thank you for your kind words. You're not intruding at all. I don't really give up, I just feel exhausted.

Also, regarding his shouting - when we were together, it sounds awful but if the children didn't agree/do what they were asked I did tend to act as a kind of buffer or to smooth things over. I think now I realise I was doing that a lot. If things went smoothly H tended to be nicer to me. But now there's no one to do that. dc1 has expressed this in a roundabout way as we tried to sort out the problems with the homework. Now, dc1 is getting older obviously but has also become more assertive in the last couple of months. It's something I've encouraged. But instead of helping things. It seems to have created more problems. With H seemingly trying to shout him down when DC is only trying to explain.
The other problem is by trying to be Mr Fun (no more set bedtime like at your controlling mother's house for example) he's set something where he's now struggling to get quiet after excitement, cue more shouting. That's completely my take on things as I imagine them from what the kids tell me so I may be wrong. I get worried because he seems on edge a lot more than before. At least that's my perception of things.

I hope things are going OK and you are keeping busy. They'll be back before you know it. Try not to focus on what may or may not be happening at their father's. You can't control it so may as well just adopt a wait and see attitude. There may be some 'damage control' when they get home, but if you remain calm and reassuring, things will be fine again in short order.

As far as his mother, I think you'll (unfortunately) need to regard her and any other relative of his as being firmly in 'the enemy camp' and a potential 'spy'. I hate to use those words, but there it is. I know you are so open and want to believe the best, but in this case you do need to adopt a good amount of skepticism. You need to take a big step back from them and not initiate any conversations and keep contact to a minimum. They can see DC when they are with their father.

Trust in what SS has told you. They've seen 1000 parents like your STBX. Parents that use them for their own ends. You know that you have nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed or afraid of. Your STBX can't say the same, can he? I'm sure that he won't be too terribly anxious to have his parenting examined, will he. And if SS is going to look at you, they're going to look at him, too!

I really smiled at the grazed knees, grassy bum, etc description. All that indicates to me is a happy, healthy, lively child. As the old quote says "God made dirt, so dirt don't hurt".

Across Thank you. Is it ok for me to PM you?

I did go away, it was a very short trip. V weird to be solo but I was not as much of a blubbery mess as I thought I'd be. At home it was fairly quiet on the legal front. I did quite a lot actually and lots of lists. I have also found work for 6 months, a pt maternity cover. I think in the last couple of months I sort of lost sight of what this is all about really. Every time something happens it messes with my head. I felt a lot calmer just before the kids came back. But I'm already back picking up the pieces.

Their holiday sounded not that wonderful actually. They're really quite unsettled, both in different ways. I've heard more about his antics than the actual family event they attended. The irresponsible idiot got arrested for drink-driving during their stay. News to me he told them he's relocating to one of the countries he works in quite a lot. DC2 has been quite rebellious and aggressive, called me some awful swear names which she must have picked up from him. Sounds like he relied on his relatives a lot for childcare. I was expecting them to come home and be full of how wonderful it all was with him. Instead it sounds it was quite boring and they were often expected to entertain themselves for long periods of time with no-one making much of an effort and got told off a lot. I feel really quite angry actually. I've dealt with the swearing but the rest makes me want to scream.

The way he blows hot and cold with them as it suits. He tells them everything and its contrary, things they don't need to know. He's made multiple applications at court, sending me over the edge with allegations, his friend's and family's behaviour, when actually he's probably going to bugger off to another continent. And he's emotionally blackmailing them about it to get to me a bit more. He sounds all over the place actually but I don't know how he can do this to them. What sort of effect is it going to have on them? Does he not think? It's so frustrating.

His buggering off to another continent would be the best outcome. Thus limiting your children's exposure to him.

For all his huffing and puffing to get at you, I've never had the impression he was genuinely interested in the children or prepared to spend time looking after them.

He's certainly played a blinder getting arrested while they were in his care.

Of course you can PM me!!

I'd suggest, if you haven't, that you get to your solicitor ASAP. The drink-driving and especially his supposed move to another country (which I doubt, I think it was said to upset the children) could have legal implications. You want to be sure your solicitor doesn't get blindsided and that you and the children are protected as far as maintenance and his (in)ability to take the children out of the UK. He can afford to visit them here, IMO.

Congratulations on your work. I think it will help you emotionally as well as build your CV.

Be sure you've written down all he's done with regards to the children. Remember that you are their rock. I'm sure they felt very insecure with him. All the behaviour they're exhibiting now is part testing you to be sure you still love them as I'm sure he showed anger and disinterest to them and they probably have become (rightfully) insecure in his love for them and that will spill over onto you. They want to be sure that you still care. "Temper justice with mercy", let them know they can't get away with bad language or disrespect, but also remind them that you love them, even when they misbehave.

As far as his move, it would probably be better for all involved. If the children say anything I'd just say "Well, we'll worry about that IF it happens."

I've drafted an email to solicitor about all the stuff but haven't sent it yet. I feel slightly unsure what line I'd prefer her to take on all this actually and also truth is I'm dreading re-entering the fray.

I've no idea whether he's really relocating. I'd rather he was, though goodness knows what other problems it'll bring. It'd contradict all his recent applications I think. But it wouldn't entirely surprise me as, cynically, I can see him there, expat community, 'fresh' start, sleazy nightlife on his doorstep, kind of his element. I've told my friend whose husband used to work with him (didn't like him), he hadn't heard anything but he's going to use his contacts to find out.

Clearly the drink driving was excused by people around him. He's never done that, at least in my presence. But yes Twinkle he timed it well certainly, though I doubt he actually cares. The kids told me he was 'under a lot of stress' and not much above the limit ... DC2 takes in everything, there's no need to even ask questions ...

DC2 has no idea what the name calling means, nor how offensive it is though had clearly picked up the anger of it and used it as such. It's the fact stbxh calls me that in front of them that's appalling. So yes dealt with but not really, and actually more damaging than his drink driving. DC1 knows not to repeat it but heard it and I wonder if it's the tip of the iceberg.

I've got to try not to get wound up by it all and sucked in all the drama again because there are a lot of other things I'm supposed to deal with, like housing. And if I'm to be ok in the job I need not to have panic attacks and be as stressed and tired as I've been.

Send the email, end it with the fact that you aren't sure what the next action should be, if any, but that you wanted them to know 'the latest'. Perhaps suggest that if they feel action needs to be taken immediately or if his 'antics' change anything about the current course of action, you will be ready at the earliest possible date to meet with them.

He calls you names in front of them, or refers to you as 'XXX' in conversation? Either is despicable, of course, and here (in the US) it is common to have it put in divorce papers that either parent is not to 'disparage' the other, upon pain of having visitation revoked. Don't know if it's done that way in the UK. But again remember, the children have YOU as a role model, too. And though they are young now, they will grow and will be able to make their own judgement about him and his actions. And your gentleness and dignity will make a much bigger impression on who they become than his (pardon me) 'arseholiness'.

He really is the most unpleasant man.

Have you had some help with your panic attacks like CBT?

I don't have anything useful to add as I think it's been covered by PPs but I have followed your threads before and thought thank goodness you've got away from him and sympathised with your ongoing difficulties, and I just had to laugh at him being arrested for drink driving. Ha, ha, bloody ha, a man who doesn't think the normal laws and moralities apply to him just got reminded.

I haven't posted for a while. Stbxh IS moving abroad, has seen the kids once since their hols with him and in fact has barely been in touch with them at all. He's back contacting me directly by email again though.
I veer from thinking he's doing the kids and me a favour moving, to feeling awful he can just walk away from them like this and the effect it's going to have on the kids, plus I worry about the complications this brings, and that he might suddenly decide to change his mind, want them to visit him, or is just cooking up some new fucked up scheme. In the meantime, his family has been completely incommunicado. It's all really hard on the children at the moment. Dc1 in particular.

Twinkle you asked about the panic attacks. I did seek help, I seem to control them slightly better, though I still have them, and still a bit unpredictable. Also I actually drive to work as it's out of town a bit, so I don't have to be in crowds so much, which is a blessing.

I think his moving abroad is the best thing that could possibly happen.

Of course it will be very hard for the children at first, but I think he's so toxic that the less exposure to him the better in the long run.

It's possible he might change his mind, and he will presumably want them to visit him at some point, but I would take it a day at a time.

I imagine this whole thing has been an enormous shock to him, and he wants to get out of the country, away from what he would see as humiliation and failure.