Cannot decide if we want our son to attend a private school or not

[Londonhoneycake]

I am 43 and attended a state school, although it was in a fairly middle-class, well-off area. My husband is 47 and went to a private school. We have two boys, aged 9 and 7, and we have started looking ahead at secondary schools for our eldest. We’ve attended open days and open mornings and met with heads of schools, but we’re still unsure whether to send him to a state school or go down the private route.

We aren’t wealthy. We could afford private school fees, but only just, and because of that my husband’s parents have offered to help with the costs. I’m not sure how I feel about that, whereas my husband is very much in favour of it.

I’d really like to hear from parents who weren’t completely sure either. We have good state schools nearby, some within walking distance, and I feel our children would benefit from attending a “normal” local school. My husband strongly wants them to go to a private school, but I’m conflicted because I disapprove of a system that reinforces inequality and gives children advantages purely based on their parents’ or guardians’ wealth.

I want our children to be educated alongside the majority. I also work closely with an education think tank, much of which focuses on strengthening state education, so it would feel quite hypocritical to send my children to private school given the values that underpin my work.

of course I don’t see rich people as the enemy. If ds makes “rich” friends later in life that’s totally fine.

As a child/teenager I think it’s more valuable for (my) kids to meet people from as broad a spectrum of society if possible, and to have local friends within walking distance. And wouldn’t want them to feel jealous of friends that have far fancier clothes and holidays. As a family we don’t fit into the wealthy/posh category at all.

The simple fact is that there are good and bad schools in both the state and private sector. The decision will largely depend on what is available to you locally. The money is sorted for you and you have therefore got freedom of choice, so you just need to look round and find the best fit for your child.

You disapprove of a system that reinforces inequality and gives children advantages based on their parents... But you grew up in middle-class environment, in a well off area, and now work at an education think tank (ie you are quite distanced from any kind of essential or key worker job)? And let's not forget you live in a sufficiently 'rich' nation that already gives you massive privileges over much of the globe, just in case you wanted to look beyond the narrow confines of your context.

A lot of judgement, but at the level of a post, sounds like champagne socialism at its worst. You don't seem to be disputing the benefits of private school, so perhaps the question is why should your biases mean your children are disadvantaged?

I don't think it is as simple as private vs state unless your decision is solely based on principle.

There is a huge range of quality in state schools and an equally huge range of quality in private schools. A school is not better simply because it is private.

That said, if you have the opportunity to choose between a good state school and a good private school, I would choose the private school option if you can afford it. In my personal experience a good private school education provides support for your child that goes beyond GCSEs and A-levels, and sets them up with additional experiences, skills and confidence that will serve them well for the rest of their lives.

This is not to say that people who went to state school cannot do equally well or better in life - of course they can - but I don't see why you would deny your children every opportunity that you can afford to give them.

It means nothing. You asked AI a question. Then copy/pasted on here as if it were an actual piece of peer-reviewed research. Quote some actual published studies if you want to make a point, not some made up AI summary.

A pp (not me) asked AI a question, which replied that
"Privately educated individuals in the UK generally earn significantly more than their state-educated peers, with studies showing a substantial salary premium that widens over time, even when controlling for university, subject, and job"

You dismissed it, claiming that the AI question should be re-phrased to exclude 90-95% of state students, and compare only the outcomes for the most academic 5-10% of state students to the whole private cohort.

You mentioned cohort size (only 7% educated privately), but I assumed it was obvious that it's not necessary to have the same cohort size. That doesn't need explaining, does it? If everything else was equal, you'd expect the same spread of earnings outcomes - proportionally - even though there would more individuals at every income level who were educated in state.

I thought that was obvious and that your objection is to the difference in cohort spread of ability

The difficulty in comparing state and private outcomes is that private education is self-selecting, and requires material/career success in the parents... which correlates to parental ability... and IQ is heritable... so there's a different spread of abilities in the private cohort than in the state cohort. So when you compare outcomes, you need to be careful to make sure you're comparing the outcome for children coming from private against the outcome for equivalent ability children coming from state.

I pointed out that the AI answer controls for university, subject and job - so it's already comparing people with equivalent A levels (assuming that universities make offers equitably based on A level grades). That makes the comparison fair despite different ability across the respective cohorts

Ie when you group people people together who you would expect to have the same earnings based on their University degree and job (and by extension, equivalent A levels)... but then you split that out again by private/state... there is a big enough difference that you can conclude that education sector does change lifetime earnings outcomes.

Now I have no idea whether the data the AI based it's answers on is correct, whether the AI has hallucinated a wrong answer from correct underlying studies, or even whether the pp genuinely got such an AI answer or just made it up for fun.

My point is that based on that answer, your request to "compare private school pupils outcomes against the top 5 or 10% of state school pupils (as defined by GCSE/A level grades)." is unnecessary. In fact, it would give a less accurate result, since it assumes that the whole private school cohort matches the ability of the top 5-10% in state school. Which is an assumption, not based on anything.

You didn’t seem to understand my comment about the AI answer "controlling for university, subject, and job" so I gave more detail. You still don't seem to understand it, but I'm not sure how else to explain.

You need to pay attention to phrases like "controlling for" - and make sure you really understand how people use underlying data to reach meaningful conclusions - if you want to understand the conclusions you read about.

It’s ridiculous comparing. The private school children are likely 90% all from wealthy supportive of education families. Even in a decent state school about a third won’t be more in the deprived school my sister taught in. So direct comparison is meaningless.

It’s very subjective. That said my teen is absolutely thriving in her state 6th form was saying last night how happy she is - tiny classes inspirational teachers lovely other kids. Genuinely don’t get what we’re missing out on.

I can see how much you like AI...

So we are in a similar situation - my eldest is 8 (in year 4) and my youngest 5 (in year 1) and we have been trying to make this decision.

I went to a private senior school as my parents didn't like the state school options available to me and felt I would do better at private. My husband is from a different area with excellent state schools and nobody really went private unless they were super wealthy, and those individuals have tended to do worse in life than my husband and his friends. So I started this thinking private and he was very much state.

Neither of us are morally opposed to private- I understand the arguments against in an ideal world, but I am very much a realist. This is particularly the case when it comes to deciding what is best for my children, to me, we need to make decisions based on the world we live in, not one we might like to live in and I wouldn't compromise my children's future for some ideal that does not exist.

However, private school for two children is a considerable commitment - I wouldn't send one without knowing I could afford to extend the opportunity to the other. We have calculated that with 5% fee increases every year, school bus and lunches will cost about £400k up to end of GCSEs for both our children. This does not include clubs, trips or exam fees, which tend to be charged extra.

So before deciding to make that commitment, we went on a complete tour of private and state schools around us in the Autumn and are not happy with any of the state schools near us.

I should add that we are on the edge of a grammar area so some children do go over the boarder to grammars or one of the two very competitive (no catchment) grammars near us. I'm not sure these woudl suit my daughter so we were only focused on non selective states. Other then one, none of the non selective states are failing schools. They are all 'ok' and have average results, but we just didn't feel they were right for my daughter - she does ok acedimically but is dyslexic and far more into extra curricular activities / art etc.

We found one state school we liked, but we would have to move. Unfortunatley this was not somwhere my husband wants to move to (although I very happily would live in the area and was happy with the school).

So ironically me being more pro private would have chosen to move and send them to the state school that we could see my daughter at, but my husband thinks moving for an ok school when he has now seen how much more would be on offer in private is ridiculous.

So, we are going private. What I would say is that we have made this decision very much with our daughter in mind and not based on any ideals or moral view. Our top choice of private school has excellent provision to support her dyslexia and outstanding facilities to nurture her sporting and art interests.

If I had a different child, I would no doubt make a different decision (for example maybe I would have done grammar) and indeed I may well choose a different option for my son, who is only 5. But before choosing for my daughter I needed to know we could afford to do the same for him.

At secondary they don’t necessarily need to go to the same school - it’s different from primary where you have to take them everyday.. Have seen parents set on a particular school for one child which really isn’t right for a sibling come to this realisation.

Not sure if that was in reply to my post, but if you read to the end that’s sort of my point - but I equally wouldn’t send one child private without knowing I had the means for the others in case it was right for them