I wish it was easier to talk about terminations (apologies if upsetting)

[Thurlow]

It feels like it is one of the great taboos and I don't dare talk about it IRL.

It's playing on my mind as I had a termination just under a year ago, so newborn babies are a bit of a touchy spot at the moment.

I am comfortable that we made the right decision but as a 30-something mum in a long term relationship, I know it is not a common choice nor it is one that many people might even understand or approve of.

But knowing it was the right decision doesn't mean I have completely forgotten about it or that I don't ever want to talk about it. I had the counseling that was offered, I am fine with my choice - but it's still there.

But I feel like I can't talk about. Sadly, many of my friends are going through problems TTCing right now, including some very, very tragic experiences. I know the most inappropriate thing I could ever say to them would be to tell them I terminated a potentially healthy baby.

99.9% of the time it is no problem but every now and again, people ask me when we might think about having another DC, or I feel I am in a conversation where I am essentially lying and dancing around the subject. I nearly mentioned it completely by accident to a very good friend the other day, a friend who would probably be very upset if she heard about it.

Why does it feel like such an awful taboo? Selfishly, why do I feel like I have to keep this secret from people? I feel like even those who wouldn't be personally hurt by the decision would probably be 'disappointed' that I made that decision, or perhaps think less of me.

It's even taken me a while to be open about this under my usual username. How bad is that?

I might be sensitive about this at the moment, but sometimes it feels as though "you made that decision, you live with it".

Is it just me? Does anyone else understand?

(Sorry this is a bit waffly...)

The problem with making it hard for trolls to know that the topic is for termination discussion is that you also make it hard for the genuine posters to know what the topic is for.

I would never have dreamed of posting about whether to have a termination for, say financial reasons, in the tests and choices thread because I assumed it was just for people testing for our dealing with fetal abnormalities.

I think if you really want to support people dealing with this issue you have to bite the bullet and make a topic that is a bit more obvious.

I second that, HearMyRoar. MN's suggestion of changing the board title might work though...but certainly with the current title I don't think discussions of abortion for anything other than medical reasons would be welcomed there.

LabMonkey: I was just discussing your post with DP and it really made me realise quite how desperately sad your situation is and how brave you and your husband are being in order to protect both of your children. I don't know that I could be that strong. I wish you all the strength in the world to get through tomorrow

Agree so much, Hear.

I've been thinking this over and I going through everyone's posts it strikes me there are four problems, most of which MN aren't entirely addressing.

1. By saying that a space to discuss abortions would be a magnet for trolls and pro-lifers, MN are letting them win. Genuinely. You are allowing the threat of what they might say to influence you not to create a dedicated area on the country's largest women's website/forum for a difficult and emotional experience that 1/3 women go through during their life.

That's so depressing. What a victory for pro-life supporters

2. It is abundantly clear from this thread that no one really feels that Antenatal Tests and Choices is either a) the appropriate place to discuss termination (coming as it often does next to people who have had devastating news about a much wanted baby), or b) clearly identifiable as the right place to talk about terminations. I don't think anyone at HQ has quite looked into where posts about terminations are started. They are all over the place, and not where you probably think they should be. (And that is just from a perfunctory search using the site's basic search). I'd urge you to go back and look at where discussions are being posted, and the tone they take depending on the board they have been posted in.

As HearMyRoar says, by hiding discussions about termination from the 'trolls' you have also effectively hidden it from your users.

3. Channeling discussions towards Antenatal Tests and Choices only deals with posters who have an immediate problem while pregnant, not those who wish to discuss issues they might have afterwards.

4. A long-running thread continues to appear to me as an actually quite ineffective way of encouraging more open discussion. Just look through this thread: hardly any of us have or are dealing with the same situation. It would be like asking everyone who has a bereavement or a mental health issue to post on the same thread. It doesn't allow easy discussion. Plus long-running threads work better for problems and issues that require more day-to-day support, such as the wonderful HG thread. Termination is not a 'day-to-day' issue in the same way. It will come and go; people with have crises. How do they then find an older thread that has died down?

I suspect I'm fighting a losing battle here but I really am very disappointed and frustrated with HQ's decision.

I'm going to report this post to try and get a response as personally I'm really interested to know what HQ think precisely about some of the points above, as I feel as though they reflect on the general running of and philosophy behind MN.

(Plus I am really quite tempted to start another thread about this in Site Stuff but I suspect that would be considered very bad etiquette. But I would like to know what other people think of a decision not more openly have an area that deals with an issue 1/3 women have been through because of fear of trolls)

I did find the ante natal choices board when I wanted to talk about my termination. However when I looked at the types of threads there I felt I couldn't post as it wasn't the right place.

My termination thread was in Antenatal Tests and Choices but as I said earlier it was, I think, easier for me as my termination was due to the devastating effects of hg so a more medical decision, I think someone needing support for a termination that wasn't related to a medical decision would find it harder and more intimidating to post their. Also for the support needed afterwards I don't think there is anywhere suitable, at least 2 of us had had bad experiences on the relationships board so that is a huge support gap.

I think a topic "termination support" is a good idea. It would not have (and didn't) cross my mind to use antenatal tests and choices topic. I have used chat and mental health topics to discuss it.

I had a termination when I was 16. We went to school together, he was in the year above me. I've never regretted my decision- without it I wouldn't have my 2 DDs. I was hurt by what a dick the boy was. I was even more hurt when I got to uni, realised he was at the same uni and president of a society I joined, and he ignored me. I was hurt by him, not the termination. My parents know but don't talk about it. I love what Caitlin Moran wrote about abortion. Its weird to think I would have a 16 year old... I go months without thinking about it.

I'm afraid I haven't read everything here, but when I was young in Mexico, many years ago, women talked quite freely about their terminations, and I hardly know anyone frankly who hasn't had to have one at some point or another.

I think the problem is that nowadays everyone is keeping it a secret, like the victims of child sexual abuse used to. So everyone feels alone and that they will be judged.

I read a wonderful article by a doctor a few years ago saying that women have abortions out of maternal love as they know they cannot give that child the life they feel they need.

Yes to " Ending Pregnancy Support / Termination Support " in Body and Soul
I have read some horrific / distressing things in Relationships , I really don't see how MNHQ can't see how beneficial this could be for women

Esssa Mine was almost 6yrs ago & I still cry now & then...usually when re-reading my posts here (I didn't post for support, but I have supported others) and remember how low I was. I lost my daughter's first Christmas waiting for a termination, and that still hurts.

But I have no regrets.

Please be kind to yourself.

Thurlow, to address #2, I saw one thread recently on antenatal tests for abortion advise.

It had ONE reply. :(

*advice.

Thurlow: I reported in favour of your eloquent post. I agree with all of your points.

I had a termination as a post graduate student, years ago.

A lovely fellow mature student in her late thirties said to me that she's had two. She told me never to feel judged over it. That she knew medical people would judge her because she'd managed to get pregnant by accident twice, but that for herself she thought she deserved a medal for all the months in her life she had managed not to get pregnant by accident. She made some pretty funny jokes about the average mans organisational skills in comparison.

I always remembered her kindness. She was right.

Congratulations to you all for the many months you have successfully avoided unwelcome pregnancy, and commiseration for the time you didn't.

Just joining to say I agree a termination support thread/area is needed.

I always try and join in discussions on termination, particularly if I see they are being derailed by 'pro life' posters... We do have a few who like to go on.

Also I recognise the issue of posters being told it will be fine, they will manage etc. Whilst I think those saying that are trying to be helpful I try to always say 'you have choices'. And no matter what choice a woman makes I won't judge and nor do I care or need to know the reasons, women should not have to justify having a termination. Yet in rl and in mnet there is very much an abortion is ok as long as you have a 'good enough' reason or its done early on in pregnancy ie 8wks ish. Society as a whole seems very squeamish to the idea of women having an abortion for the simple reason it's what's best for them and it's what's needed and the later an abortion is the more judgey/squeamish people get.

Anyway you all have my support

I really don't see how MNHQ can't see how beneficial this could be for women

Exactly.

Like you, madthings, I keep an eye out and I want to try and support other posters but because there is no logical area for the posts it is very hard to find them. Not like knowing you can give good advice on cooking or diy - you know where to keep monitoring for those threads.

HQ, I do appreciate that you have the Antenatal Tests and Choices board in mind for discussions of termination, but I think this thread makes it abundantly clear that that is not how people understand that board, nor how it is used, nor where people are turning for termination support.

I feel as though you are giving out a response that was a decision made a while ago. But it seems that decision is not working.

Is it possible that we can start a wider discussion on MN about this? That HQ can look at that decision again? Perhaps go back and look at where posts are being started and the responses they are getting? And perhaps reevaluate what MN is doing to support women going through terminations, as it seems clear that the set up at the moment isn't working?

I'm really quite disappointed by MNHQ.

Me too, loafers. I do sort of understand where they are coming from but I think this thread is making it clear that it isn't currently working and that it needs to be looked at again.

The thought that keeps coming back to me is how strange it is, really, that the largest forum for women in the UK doesn't have a dedicated area to support the many women who go through this.

I had one, and it turns out to have been an even better decision than I thought. We did it because dd2 was barely 3 monts old and we were barely affording life with 2. But, ex was already mentally checked out, and by the time the theoretical due date came round, he had run off to join the army and wanted a divorce (and years later i fouund out he had a bit on the side at the time of the termination, and had another he met at basic training. ) thank all the gods I only had the 2 to deal with as a single parent.

I agree that it is taboo to talk about abortions. I was shocked to realise 1 in 3 women in the UK have had one. It is very very common, and rarely talked about.

Morning everyone,

Thank you again for all your feedback on this - we do hear your concerns As you might have seen, today we're hosting a debate on the Scottish referendum, so lots of the senior MNHQ bods are in Scotland at the moment.

We want to be able to pause and give the important issues raised on this thread our full attention, to be sure that we get it right. So we'll get back to you fully on this in a couple of days.

Please do keep posting your thoughts and suggestions, as we really value your opinions on this

Thanks Kate. Good luck with the webchat!

Yo!

Just another post from me in support of the idea of a seperate board for termination support.

Someone said upthread that the majority of abortions are by women who are already parents. How can mumsnet not have an area specifically for abortion support if this is so?

If you're worried about the trolls, stick a disclaimer up the top warning posters that due to it being a controversial subject, please be wary that trolls may appear, but supportive posters will swiftly follow and abusive bastards will be deleted :)